I wonder how many list members will be at the conference.

This list had a small part in the start of this conference. Years
ago, we started gathering list members for a breakfast at The Energy
Fair each year. Out of one of those breakfasts and from other sources
came a desire for a larger and more comprehensive discussion of small
wind, with a no-nonsense approach not directed by manufacturers or
big wind interests.

Hope to see you next week!

Regards,

Ian


>Small Wind Conference 2012
>Where:
>Stevens Point Holiday Inn and Conference Center
>1001 Amber Avenue
>Stevens Point, WI 54482
>
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbhgVlrR-GHGx4vJE-MlsUnNGrnfSZ94zH_r-QK\
O-Unp5DrUgUhUnMNHEVUczE0jkuSXbKwPqzYP8oZ9Knwsp4O8Z2gN2o28iiJOM91Yq0Sl-sfjN4NxO_5\
YpyjeZHOZ2t8bW71W7V-2Z13oc7t0fKTJeP_CMwS5BP_2fIJaHO3b2wGGZVrDNXilnSNMqwnU9yc=>Dr\
iving
>Directions
>
>When:
>Tuesday June 12, 2012 at 8:00 AM CDT
>-to-
>Wednesday June 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM CDT
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbg-r-mL-0Zdlj4BhNPCqNa5p7rPCF2VJmayPU4\
7Vbwc7mQ6VUf5qMIR6TxfqxR3I3NrK0ncyC2sMiEsu55iONy9KxLTFK9EXOBffVBuEmCSXL5JWdOAGz3\
UkoB5BibOxXywk5S1Q5YEDK7rRFdYFG9DYPfEB4S7ubPSriA9wqXTj_n2kJX2Wuc8NxFoM8tOH6k=>Ad\
d
>to my calendar
>
>Dear Ian,
>
>Register today for the 8th Annual Small Wind Conference in Stevens
>Point!  You know you do not want to miss this incredible event...Dan
>Juhl as Key Note speaker... manufacturers discussing the newest
>technologies...the cutting edge in certification, zoning,
>incentives, and safety...this is the place to be if you are at all
>engaged in the Small Wind industry!
>
>Online registration will end on Saturday, June 9 but walk-in
>registrations will be welcomed at the Holiday Inn Conference Center
>in Stevens Point for:
>
>Zoning Summit 2012 and Fundamentals of Wind Energy on Monday, June
>11...and the Small Wind Conference on Tuesday, June 12 - Wednesday,
>June 13.
>
>Many side meetings and trainings will be held...including a workshop
>on JEDI (Jobs and Economic Development Impact) hosted by the
>National Renewable Energy Laboratory on Thursday morning.
>
>
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbhPf_qyO8p7j0PuKtg5hhwt0WG_Ou69CUyqALi\
2CaOKhtbCu4a-NNf4cDS9aoJt5dwB9Dqt5jjYfK79BIZbljkjo3e__BpoPAsJBcUhQdzBn4rFxnrSifE\
QxHjFwT74Y5bkxwOOHz9L8lbv87zStXbYGMZVQS4ircuyFHZ9KGdvr_rocUSCeJymp67W-jg08NXNKkZ\
PjUaqqw==>Get
>more information
><'"http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbhwxgIRdzqYKjbAQ8fuZTEnnQYMOyJSNML6R\
Wa7c7uJJUpOF6KWRPNQIEomHhEeaLNurvxAsP_OgVQZK23RBAecOQlZJRh8Pfvs1q2kDlmaWCn1x-P1U\
iBbo83s6ZydDQTx9wyLEzir_meXknJ_OvyLJjcf18pV4UGZB9URjwKBCa4oVycG-3BB-DlqQN9BVSmBh\
2sv9dlGBk4KPYKKn7>Register
>Now!
><http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/decline?llr=qmhej5iab&oeidk=a07\
e5iuah953ef7d566&oseq=a019qgy06jev2>Ican't
>make it
>              We thank our wonderful Sponsors!!!
>
>
>National Renewable Energy Laboratory
>
>Miller Fall Protection/Honeywell
>
>Gaia Wind
>
>Endurance Windpower
>
>Bergey Windpower
>
>Evance Wind
>
>Intertek
>
>Wind Analytics
>
>APRS World
>
>AWEA
>
>Edge Consulting
>
>HomePower
>
>Seaforth Energy
>
>eFormative Options
>
>Four Winds Renewable Energy
>
>North Coast Energy Systems
>
>Talco Electronics
>
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Samantha Smart Merritt
>Small Wind Conference LLC
>samantha@...
>612-655-5363
><http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&mse=001qhI0xrYhVqSPvJ72O8aJy46DF6-K\
msXQ&t=0010CeRkzZvKwBP5ZzrAhZnmA%3D%3D&llr=qmhej5iab>
>Small Wind Conference LLC | 8902 Route 46 | Arkport | NY | 14807
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wanna go so bad, but not thrilled with the airport experience as of late.  (We
were all warned about that sort of thing when I was a kid.)
Also, with so many people I'd like to stop and see, it might make more sense to
drive.  But I'd have to get packed up and started pretty quick and I only get 11
mpg so it would cost me a couple grand in gas...  Shizzle!

--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>
>
> I wonder how many list members will be at the conference.
>
> This list had a small part in the start of this conference. Years
> ago, we started gathering list members for a breakfast at The Energy
> Fair each year. Out of one of those breakfasts and from other sources
> came a desire for a larger and more comprehensive discussion of small
> wind, with a no-nonsense approach not directed by manufacturers or
> big wind interests.
>
> Hope to see you next week!
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
>
> >Small Wind Conference 2012
> >Where:
> >Stevens Point Holiday Inn and Conference Center
> >1001 Amber Avenue
> >Stevens Point, WI 54482
> >
>
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbhgVlrR-GHGx4vJE-MlsUnNGrnfSZ94zH_r-QK\
O-Unp5DrUgUhUnMNHEVUczE0jkuSXbKwPqzYP8oZ9Knwsp4O8Z2gN2o28iiJOM91Yq0Sl-sfjN4NxO_5\
YpyjeZHOZ2t8bW71W7V-2Z13oc7t0fKTJeP_CMwS5BP_2fIJaHO3b2wGGZVrDNXilnSNMqwnU9yc=>Dr\
iving
> >Directions
> >
> >When:
> >Tuesday June 12, 2012 at 8:00 AM CDT
> >-to-
> >Wednesday June 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM CDT
>
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbg-r-mL-0Zdlj4BhNPCqNa5p7rPCF2VJmayPU4\
7Vbwc7mQ6VUf5qMIR6TxfqxR3I3NrK0ncyC2sMiEsu55iONy9KxLTFK9EXOBffVBuEmCSXL5JWdOAGz3\
UkoB5BibOxXywk5S1Q5YEDK7rRFdYFG9DYPfEB4S7ubPSriA9wqXTj_n2kJX2Wuc8NxFoM8tOH6k=>Ad\
d
> >to my calendar
> >
> >Dear Ian,
> >
> >Register today for the 8th Annual Small Wind Conference in Stevens
> >Point!  You know you do not want to miss this incredible event...Dan
> >Juhl as Key Note speaker... manufacturers discussing the newest
> >technologies...the cutting edge in certification, zoning,
> >incentives, and safety...this is the place to be if you are at all
> >engaged in the Small Wind industry!
> >
> >Online registration will end on Saturday, June 9 but walk-in
> >registrations will be welcomed at the Holiday Inn Conference Center
> >in Stevens Point for:
> >
> >Zoning Summit 2012 and Fundamentals of Wind Energy on Monday, June
> >11...and the Small Wind Conference on Tuesday, June 12 - Wednesday,
> >June 13.
> >
> >Many side meetings and trainings will be held...including a workshop
> >on JEDI (Jobs and Economic Development Impact) hosted by the
> >National Renewable Energy Laboratory on Thursday morning.
> >
> >
>
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbhPf_qyO8p7j0PuKtg5hhwt0WG_Ou69CUyqALi\
2CaOKhtbCu4a-NNf4cDS9aoJt5dwB9Dqt5jjYfK79BIZbljkjo3e__BpoPAsJBcUhQdzBn4rFxnrSifE\
QxHjFwT74Y5bkxwOOHz9L8lbv87zStXbYGMZVQS4ircuyFHZ9KGdvr_rocUSCeJymp67W-jg08NXNKkZ\
PjUaqqw==>Get
> >more information
>
><'"http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbhwxgIRdzqYKjbAQ8fuZTEnnQYMOyJSNML6R\
Wa7c7uJJUpOF6KWRPNQIEomHhEeaLNurvxAsP_OgVQZK23RBAecOQlZJRh8Pfvs1q2kDlmaWCn1x-P1U\
iBbo83s6ZydDQTx9wyLEzir_meXknJ_OvyLJjcf18pV4UGZB9URjwKBCa4oVycG-3BB-DlqQN9BVSmBh\
2sv9dlGBk4KPYKKn7>Register
> >Now!
>
><http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/decline?llr=qmhej5iab&oeidk=a07\
e5iuah953ef7d566&oseq=a019qgy06jev2>Ican't
> >make it
> >              We thank our wonderful Sponsors!!!
> >
> >
> >National Renewable Energy Laboratory
> >
> >Miller Fall Protection/Honeywell
> >
> >Gaia Wind
> >
> >Endurance Windpower
> >
> >Bergey Windpower
> >
> >Evance Wind
> >
> >Intertek
> >
> >Wind Analytics
> >
> >APRS World
> >
> >AWEA
> >
> >Edge Consulting
> >
> >HomePower
> >
> >Seaforth Energy
> >
> >eFormative Options
> >
> >Four Winds Renewable Energy
> >
> >North Coast Energy Systems
> >
> >Talco Electronics
> >
> >
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Samantha Smart Merritt
> >Small Wind Conference LLC
> >samantha@...
> >612-655-5363
>
><http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&mse=001qhI0xrYhVqSPvJ72O8aJy46DF6-K\
msXQ&t=0010CeRkzZvKwBP5ZzrAhZnmA%3D%3D&llr=qmhej5iab>
> >Small Wind Conference LLC | 8902 Route 46 | Arkport | NY | 14807
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hey Nando:
I was listening to a local radio station last night, and as I drove my Chevy
3500 Express van into the large garage, the radio reception went to all static,
and became unintelligible.  I tried turning on a radio plugged into the wall and
it was also unintelligible.  I went over and hit the "reset" button on the
Bergey inverter, and the then both radios were fine and easy to hear.

So it's not just interference in the wiring in the walls, but actual radio
(R.F.) noise.
One day I noted that at exactly 8:00 PM the radio went to static.  Though
shutting down all inverters solved the problem, part of the problem was, I
think, that AM stations often "power down" to a fraction of their daytime
wattage around sunset, since the signal carries longer at night.  Also, this
6600 sq. ft. building is stucco, which has chicken wire as backing, forming a
partial "Faraday Cage" which likely keeps the radio signal out and the
interference in.

Anyway I cannot tell you the number of times I've shut off the inverter so I
could hear something on the radio, then forget to turn the inverter on again til
days later when I momentarily wonder why the (unloaded) turbine is so loud, and
realize I need to hit "reset" again...  I always thought the RF emission
requirements for electronics were just some abstract formality, but I can see
they are for real now.  I believe this exact inverter is no longer used, by the
way.  Nonetheless, I think it is quite instructive for all that this can be a
serious problem and a little bit of shielding/filtering might go a long way
toward eliminating such a irritation that transitions into lost energy capture.
:)
Doug Selsam


--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
>
> Doug:
>
> The problem is in the GRID Tied inverters that do not have RF= Radio Frequency
filtering and the Noise generated by the power semiconductors switching are
transmitted by the power leads to the GRID power lines that fed the radio and
saturate the radios themselves .
>
> There are some filters that can be bought and place in series with the output
of the Grid tied inverter to solve the problem.
>
> This type of the filtering has to be done step by step to attain clear results
-- that often requires several tries to solve the problem.
>
> Cleaning this type of problems is something like "Black Magic" for the point
of view of the NO experts .
>
> Nando
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Doug
>   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 14:27
>   Subject: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters
>
>
>
>   I like to listen to the radio while I work sometimes. Out in my shop, we
have a 12 kW Bergey inverter for our 10 kW machine in the backyard, and a
beta-version of a U.S. made inverter to run smaller turbines into the grid. The
combination of both inverters sometimes makes AM radio reception impossible. The
amount of static seems to vary with the time of day. It's hard to tell which
inverter causes the most interference. If something comes on I really want to
hear, I have to run over and shut both inverters off, trading my radio static
for the neighbors enjoying the unloaded turbine sound.
>   I have two radios out there and it happens to both.
>   Does anyone have any advice on how to lower radio interference from
grid-tied inverters? I can plugged a separate extension cord into an outlet
below one radio and that seemed to act as an antenna improving reception
greatly, so we're walking on thin ice generally, as far as radio reception goes.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Doug:

Radio Frequency Interference = RFI is quite common and for reason the FCC have
requirements to full fill to insure that the product does not produce
interference.
Unhappily too many products coming from the far east though supposedly filtered
to cure that problem is not solved properly, they showed that the initial
product was clean but later production is slightly modified to save some pennies
and the RFI increases 30 to 60 dBs .

Corcom is a company that produce RFI filters that could be installed on the
output of the inverter and sometimes solve or reduce that problem to a maximum .

I did many filters to solve cleaning of military products so I am quite familiar
with the problem ( I was !! at least ).

If you have pure sine waves inverters the Corcom filter will assist you well,
make sure that the filter can carry the current and of course the voltage .

If the inverter is a MSW you need to determine if the output is bipolar ( in
this case the positive and negative pulses of the sine wave are on one unique
lead) -- the Corcom is connectable .

If the inverter is a MSW with Monopolar pulses ( one positive pulse on a lead
and the negative on the other lead) the Corcom can not be connected, you need a
special  filter with isolated ground and no one produce them actually.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Doug
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 13:54
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters



   Hey Nando:
   I was listening to a local radio station last night, and as I drove my Chevy
3500 Express van into the large garage, the radio reception went to all static,
and became unintelligible. I tried turning on a radio plugged into the wall and
it was also unintelligible. I went over and hit the "reset" button on the Bergey
inverter, and the then both radios were fine and easy to hear.

   So it's not just interference in the wiring in the walls, but actual radio
(R.F.) noise.
   One day I noted that at exactly 8:00 PM the radio went to static. Though
shutting down all inverters solved the problem, part of the problem was, I
think, that AM stations often "power down" to a fraction of their daytime
wattage around sunset, since the signal carries longer at night. Also, this 6600
sq. ft. building is stucco, which has chicken wire as backing, forming a partial
"Faraday Cage" which likely keeps the radio signal out and the interference in.

   Anyway I cannot tell you the number of times I've shut off the inverter so I
could hear something on the radio, then forget to turn the inverter on again til
days later when I momentarily wonder why the (unloaded) turbine is so loud, and
realize I need to hit "reset" again... I always thought the RF emission
requirements for electronics were just some abstract formality, but I can see
they are for real now. I believe this exact inverter is no longer used, by the
way. Nonetheless, I think it is quite instructive for all that this can be a
serious problem and a little bit of shielding/filtering might go a long way
toward eliminating such a irritation that transitions into lost energy capture.
   :)
   Doug Selsam

   --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
   >
   > Doug:
   >
   > The problem is in the GRID Tied inverters that do not have RF= Radio
Frequency filtering and the Noise generated by the power semiconductors
switching are transmitted by the power leads to the GRID power lines that fed
the radio and saturate the radios themselves .
   >
   > There are some filters that can be bought and place in series with the
output of the Grid tied inverter to solve the problem.
   >
   > This type of the filtering has to be done step by step to attain clear
results -- that often requires several tries to solve the problem.
   >
   > Cleaning this type of problems is something like "Black Magic" for the point
of view of the NO experts .
   >
   > Nando
   >
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: Doug
   > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 14:27
   > Subject: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters
   >
   >
   >
   > I like to listen to the radio while I work sometimes. Out in my shop, we
have a 12 kW Bergey inverter for our 10 kW machine in the backyard, and a
beta-version of a U.S. made inverter to run smaller turbines into the grid. The
combination of both inverters sometimes makes AM radio reception impossible. The
amount of static seems to vary with the time of day. It's hard to tell which
inverter causes the most interference. If something comes on I really want to
hear, I have to run over and shut both inverters off, trading my radio static
for the neighbors enjoying the unloaded turbine sound.
   > I have two radios out there and it happens to both.
   > Does anyone have any advice on how to lower radio interference from
grid-tied inverters? I can plugged a separate extension cord into an outlet
below one radio and that seemed to act as an antenna improving reception
greatly, so we're walking on thin ice generally, as far as radio reception goes.
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 
                       Hi Doug, Nando and All,

                                  Amazingly I'm going to have to agree with
Nando 100% here.  Call the inverter company and ask why they don't meet FCC
requirements and what are they going to do about yours.
 
                                                                                \
      Jerry Dycus
 
________________________________

From: Nando <nando37@...>
To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Doug <dougselsam@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters


Doug:

Radio Frequency Interference = RFI is quite common and for reason the FCC have
requirements to full fill to insure that the product does not produce
interference.
Unhappily too many products coming from the far east though supposedly filtered
to cure that problem is not solved properly, they showed that the initial
product was clean but later production is slightly modified to save some pennies
and the RFI increases 30 to 60 dBs .

Corcom is a company that produce RFI filters that could be installed on the
output of the inverter and sometimes solve or reduce that problem to a maximum .

I did many filters to solve cleaning of military products so I am quite familiar
with the problem ( I was !! at least ).

If you have pure sine waves inverters the Corcom filter will assist you well,
make sure that the filter can carry the current and of course the voltage .

If the inverter is a MSW you need to determine if the output is bipolar ( in
this case the positive and negative pulses of the sine wave are on one unique
lead) -- the Corcom is connectable .

If the inverter is a MSW with Monopolar pulses ( one positive pulse on a lead
and the negative on the other lead) the Corcom can not be connected, you need a
special  filter with isolated ground and no one produce them actually.

Nando

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Doug
  To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 13:54
  Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters


   
  Hey Nando:
  I was listening to a local radio station last night, and as I drove my Chevy
3500 Express van into the large garage, the radio reception went to all static,
and became unintelligible. I tried turning on a radio plugged into the wall and
it was also unintelligible. I went over and hit the "reset" button on the Bergey
inverter, and the then both radios were fine and easy to hear.

  So it's not just interference in the wiring in the walls, but actual radio
(R.F.) noise.
  One day I noted that at exactly 8:00 PM the radio went to static. Though
shutting down all inverters solved the problem, part of the problem was, I
think, that AM stations often "power down" to a fraction of their daytime
wattage around sunset, since the signal carries longer at night. Also, this 6600
sq. ft. building is stucco, which has chicken wire as backing, forming a partial
"Faraday Cage" which likely keeps the radio signal out and the interference in.

  Anyway I cannot tell you the number of times I've shut off the inverter so I
could hear something on the radio, then forget to turn the inverter on again til
days later when I momentarily wonder why the (unloaded) turbine is so loud, and
realize I need to hit "reset" again... I always thought the RF emission
requirements for electronics were just some abstract formality, but I can see
they are for real now. I believe this exact inverter is no longer used, by the
way. Nonetheless, I think it is quite instructive for all that this can be a
serious problem and a little bit of shielding/filtering might go a long way
toward eliminating such a irritation that transitions into lost energy capture.
  :)
  Doug Selsam

  --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
  >
  > Doug:
  >
  > The problem is in the GRID Tied inverters that do not have RF= Radio
Frequency filtering and the Noise generated by the power semiconductors
switching are transmitted by the power leads to the GRID power lines that fed
the radio and saturate the radios themselves .
  >
  > There are some filters that can be bought and place in series with the
output of the Grid tied inverter to solve the problem.
  >
  > This type of the filtering has to be done step by step to attain clear
results -- that often requires several tries to solve the problem.
  >
  > Cleaning this type of problems is something like "Black Magic" for the point
of view of the NO experts .
  >
  > Nando
  >
  >
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Doug
  > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 14:27
  > Subject: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters
  >
  >
  >
  > I like to listen to the radio while I work sometimes. Out in my shop, we
have a 12 kW Bergey inverter for our 10 kW machine in the backyard, and a
beta-version of a U.S. made inverter to run smaller turbines into the grid. The
combination of both inverters sometimes makes AM radio reception impossible. The
amount of static seems to vary with the time of day. It's hard to tell which
inverter causes the most interference. If something comes on I really want to
hear, I have to run over and shut both inverters off, trading my radio static
for the neighbors enjoying the unloaded turbine sound.
  > I have two radios out there and it happens to both.
  > Does anyone have any advice on how to lower radio interference from
grid-tied inverters? I can plugged a separate extension cord into an outlet
below one radio and that seemed to act as an antenna improving reception
greatly, so we're walking on thin ice generally, as far as radio reception goes.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >



 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We'll see ya'all there !!

boB


--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>
>
> I wonder how many list members will be at the conference.
>
> This list had a small part in the start of this conference. Years
> ago, we started gathering list members for a breakfast at The Energy
> Fair each year. Out of one of those breakfasts and from other sources
> came a desire for a larger and more comprehensive discussion of small
> wind, with a no-nonsense approach not directed by manufacturers or
> big wind interests.
>
> Hope to see you next week!
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
>
> >Small Wind Conference 2012
> >Where:
> >Stevens Point Holiday Inn and Conference Center
> >1001 Amber Avenue
> >Stevens Point, WI 54482
> >
>
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbhgVlrR-GHGx4vJE-MlsUnNGrnfSZ94zH_r-QK\
O-Unp5DrUgUhUnMNHEVUczE0jkuSXbKwPqzYP8oZ9Knwsp4O8Z2gN2o28iiJOM91Yq0Sl-sfjN4NxO_5\
YpyjeZHOZ2t8bW71W7V-2Z13oc7t0fKTJeP_CMwS5BP_2fIJaHO3b2wGGZVrDNXilnSNMqwnU9yc=>Dr\
iving
> >Directions
> >
> >When:
> >Tuesday June 12, 2012 at 8:00 AM CDT
> >-to-
> >Wednesday June 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM CDT
>
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbg-r-mL-0Zdlj4BhNPCqNa5p7rPCF2VJmayPU4\
7Vbwc7mQ6VUf5qMIR6TxfqxR3I3NrK0ncyC2sMiEsu55iONy9KxLTFK9EXOBffVBuEmCSXL5JWdOAGz3\
UkoB5BibOxXywk5S1Q5YEDK7rRFdYFG9DYPfEB4S7ubPSriA9wqXTj_n2kJX2Wuc8NxFoM8tOH6k=>Ad\
d
> >to my calendar
> >
> >Dear Ian,
> >
> >Register today for the 8th Annual Small Wind Conference in Stevens
> >Point!  You know you do not want to miss this incredible event...Dan
> >Juhl as Key Note speaker... manufacturers discussing the newest
> >technologies...the cutting edge in certification, zoning,
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> >engaged in the Small Wind industry!
> >
> >Online registration will end on Saturday, June 9 but walk-in
> >registrations will be welcomed at the Holiday Inn Conference Center
> >in Stevens Point for:
> >
> >Zoning Summit 2012 and Fundamentals of Wind Energy on Monday, June
> >11...and the Small Wind Conference on Tuesday, June 12 - Wednesday,
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> >
> >Many side meetings and trainings will be held...including a workshop
> >on JEDI (Jobs and Economic Development Impact) hosted by the
> >National Renewable Energy Laboratory on Thursday morning.
> >
> >
>
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QxHjFwT74Y5bkxwOOHz9L8lbv87zStXbYGMZVQS4ircuyFHZ9KGdvr_rocUSCeJymp67W-jg08NXNKkZ\
PjUaqqw==>Get
> >more information
>
><'"http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001Ur0BUHGyAbhwxgIRdzqYKjbAQ8fuZTEnnQYMOyJSNML6R\
Wa7c7uJJUpOF6KWRPNQIEomHhEeaLNurvxAsP_OgVQZK23RBAecOQlZJRh8Pfvs1q2kDlmaWCn1x-P1U\
iBbo83s6ZydDQTx9wyLEzir_meXknJ_OvyLJjcf18pV4UGZB9URjwKBCa4oVycG-3BB-DlqQN9BVSmBh\
2sv9dlGBk4KPYKKn7>Register
> >Now!
>
><http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/decline?llr=qmhej5iab&oeidk=a07\
e5iuah953ef7d566&oseq=a019qgy06jev2>Ican't
> >make it
> >              We thank our wonderful Sponsors!!!
> >
> >
> >National Renewable Energy Laboratory
> >
> >Miller Fall Protection/Honeywell
> >
> >Gaia Wind
> >
> >Endurance Windpower
> >
> >Bergey Windpower
> >
> >Evance Wind
> >
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> >
> >Talco Electronics
> >
> >
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Samantha Smart Merritt
> >Small Wind Conference LLC
> >samantha@...
> >612-655-5363
>
><http://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&mse=001qhI0xrYhVqSPvJ72O8aJy46DF6-K\
msXQ&t=0010CeRkzZvKwBP5ZzrAhZnmA%3D%3D&llr=qmhej5iab>
> >Small Wind Conference LLC | 8902 Route 46 | Arkport | NY | 14807
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Jerry Dycus:

Pleaaaaaasssse be careful in agreeeeeiiiing with me, You may have a heart
attack. if you do !!

I am wondering why it is so amazing ??? That may give me a heart attack !!!

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jerry freedomev
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 15:45
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters




                          Hi Doug, Nando and All,

                                     Amazingly I'm going to have to agree with
Nando 100% here.  Call the inverter company and ask why they don't meet FCC
requirements and what are they going to do about yours.

                                                                                        
Jerry Dycus

   ________________________________

   From: Nando <nando37@...>
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Doug <dougselsam@...>
   Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 4:00 PM
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters

   Doug:

   Radio Frequency Interference = RFI is quite common and for reason the FCC have
requirements to full fill to insure that the product does not produce
interference.
   Unhappily too many products coming from the far east though supposedly
filtered to cure that problem is not solved properly, they showed that the
initial product was clean but later production is slightly modified to save some
pennies and the RFI increases 30 to 60 dBs .

   Corcom is a company that produce RFI filters that could be installed on the
output of the inverter and sometimes solve or reduce that problem to a maximum .

   I did many filters to solve cleaning of military products so I am quite
familiar with the problem ( I was !! at least ).

   If you have pure sine waves inverters the Corcom filter will assist you well,
make sure that the filter can carry the current and of course the voltage .

   If the inverter is a MSW you need to determine if the output is bipolar ( in
this case the positive and negative pulses of the sine wave are on one unique
lead) -- the Corcom is connectable .

   If the inverter is a MSW with Monopolar pulses ( one positive pulse on a lead
and the negative on the other lead) the Corcom can not be connected, you need a
special  filter with isolated ground and no one produce them actually.

   Nando

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Doug
     To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 13:54
     Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters


     Hey Nando:
     I was listening to a local radio station last night, and as I drove my Chevy
3500 Express van into the large garage, the radio reception went to all static,
and became unintelligible. I tried turning on a radio plugged into the wall and
it was also unintelligible. I went over and hit the "reset" button on the Bergey
inverter, and the then both radios were fine and easy to hear.

     So it's not just interference in the wiring in the walls, but actual radio
(R.F.) noise.
     One day I noted that at exactly 8:00 PM the radio went to static. Though
shutting down all inverters solved the problem, part of the problem was, I
think, that AM stations often "power down" to a fraction of their daytime
wattage around sunset, since the signal carries longer at night. Also, this 6600
sq. ft. building is stucco, which has chicken wire as backing, forming a partial
"Faraday Cage" which likely keeps the radio signal out and the interference in.

     Anyway I cannot tell you the number of times I've shut off the inverter so I
could hear something on the radio, then forget to turn the inverter on again til
days later when I momentarily wonder why the (unloaded) turbine is so loud, and
realize I need to hit "reset" again... I always thought the RF emission
requirements for electronics were just some abstract formality, but I can see
they are for real now. I believe this exact inverter is no longer used, by the
way. Nonetheless, I think it is quite instructive for all that this can be a
serious problem and a little bit of shielding/filtering might go a long way
toward eliminating such a irritation that transitions into lost energy capture.
     :)
     Doug Selsam

     --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
     >
     > Doug:
     >
     > The problem is in the GRID Tied inverters that do not have RF= Radio
Frequency filtering and the Noise generated by the power semiconductors
switching are transmitted by the power leads to the GRID power lines that fed
the radio and saturate the radios themselves .
     >
     > There are some filters that can be bought and place in series with the
output of the Grid tied inverter to solve the problem.
     >
     > This type of the filtering has to be done step by step to attain clear
results -- that often requires several tries to solve the problem.
     >
     > Cleaning this type of problems is something like "Black Magic" for the
point of view of the NO experts .
     >
     > Nando
     >
     >
     >
     > ----- Original Message -----
     > From: Doug
     > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
     > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 14:27
     > Subject: [s-w-h] Radio Interference from Inverters
     >
     >
     >
     > I like to listen to the radio while I work sometimes. Out in my shop, we
have a 12 kW Bergey inverter for our 10 kW machine in the backyard, and a
beta-version of a U.S. made inverter to run smaller turbines into the grid. The
combination of both inverters sometimes makes AM radio reception impossible. The
amount of static seems to vary with the time of day. It's hard to tell which
inverter causes the most interference. If something comes on I really want to
hear, I have to run over and shut both inverters off, trading my radio static
for the neighbors enjoying the unloaded turbine sound.
     > I have two radios out there and it happens to both.
     > Does anyone have any advice on how to lower radio interference from
grid-tied inverters? I can plugged a separate extension cord into an outlet
below one radio and that seemed to act as an antenna improving reception
greatly, so we're walking on thin ice generally, as far as radio reception goes.
     >
     >
     >
     >
     >
     > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
     >



   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   ------------------------------------

   ==========================================================
   THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   . Please feel free to send your input to:
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   . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
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   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series.  Starting around
3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph.  I am interested in feedback on weather
this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me.  I am
hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
plan.

Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.

Dean White
Technical Lab Specialist
Wylie, Texas 75098


CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential information. The
information is intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If you
have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to
arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You are hereby
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action
in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

Hi Dean,

Wind is a cubic resource, a fact that's instructive on both ends of
the scale, with a conclusion in the middle:

* At very low wind speeds (under perhaps 6-8 mph), there is very
little energy available; it's not worth capturing or focusing on.

* At high wind speeds (25-30+ mph) there is "too much" energy
available, and we must shed wind/energy somehow to protect the
machines.

* We're really interested in the winds from ~10-25 mph. That's where
there's real energy worth capturing without risking life and limb.

Do the cubic math:

3 X 3 X 3 = 27 (units (o compare with other wind speeds)
6 X 6 X 6 = 216
10 X 10 X 10 = 1,000
15 X 15 X 15 = 3,375
20 X 20 X 20 = 8,000
25 X 25 X 25 = 15,625
40 X 40 X 40 = 64,000

Best,

Ian


At 11:59 AM -0500 6/8/12, Dean White wrote:
>I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
>3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on weather
>this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
>hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
>plan.
>
>Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
>
>Dean White
>Technical Lab Specialist
>Wylie, Texas 75098

Yeah you heard the truth there Dean.  No point in chasing super-light winds, any
more than it pays to pick up pennies at the rate of, say, one per minute.

Of course telling the truth does not mean anyone listens - despite the fact that
(especially if?) they are highly degreed, or highly-educated.  I call it "The
Professor Crackpot Syndrome".

We've talked a lot in years past about the LWST (Low Wind Speed Turbine)
concept.  The basic idea is to match more rotor to less generator.  I've offered
the idea that my patented SuperTurbine(R) concept expands the usable wind regime
by adding more rotors.  Others have countered that such increased swept area is
best accomplished by simply increasing the diameter of a single rotor.

Either way, you can adjust the targeted wind regime a little bit toward higher
or lower winds, but any structure you put out there must be able to withstand
~80 - 100 mph winds at some point, even if you think it's made to target low
wind speeds.  (Every location is subject to storms.)

At that point, the incremental cost for a slightly stronger generator, to take
advantage of your larger rotor, becomes too tempting, and you end up back in the
sweet spot of wind turbine design that everyone else falls into.
Ever notice how every time you think of something new, you end up as one more
statistic?
:)
Doug Selsam

--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean,
>
> Wind is a cubic resource, a fact that's instructive on both ends of
> the scale, with a conclusion in the middle:
>
> * At very low wind speeds (under perhaps 6-8 mph), there is very
> little energy available; it's not worth capturing or focusing on.
>
> * At high wind speeds (25-30+ mph) there is "too much" energy
> available, and we must shed wind/energy somehow to protect the
> machines.
>
> * We're really interested in the winds from ~10-25 mph. That's where
> there's real energy worth capturing without risking life and limb.
>
> Do the cubic math:
>
> 3 X 3 X 3 = 27 (units (o compare with other wind speeds)
> 6 X 6 X 6 = 216
> 10 X 10 X 10 = 1,000
> 15 X 15 X 15 = 3,375
> 20 X 20 X 20 = 8,000
> 25 X 25 X 25 = 15,625
> 40 X 40 X 40 = 64,000
>
> Best,
>
> Ian
>
>
> At 11:59 AM -0500 6/8/12, Dean White wrote:
> >I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
> >3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on weather
> >this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
> >hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
> >plan.
> >
> >Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
> >
> >Dean White
> >Technical Lab Specialist
> >Wylie, Texas 75098
>

dean:

You may open the Pandora box.

Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low and the
design of such wind mill is not practical.

To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a special
generator -- for proper marriage of both !!

Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of blades like
the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.

Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE necessity of
having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities ( storm wise)
arrive .

In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL" TPCH  wind
mill capable of High stalling capabilities.

Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a low cost.

Nando


``


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Dean White
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
   Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.




   I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
   3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on weather
   this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
   hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
   plan.

   Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.

   Dean White
   Technical Lab Specialist
   Wylie, Texas 75098


   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential information.
The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If
you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by
telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You are
hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any
action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dean and  Nando,
This is not a rebuttal, just an observation.
If you reread Deans email he is asking if
there is a need and a market for a low
wind turbine. The answer is most
definitely!

I reside in Zone 1 (Little or no wind) and
my efforts for wind turbine have been
less than desirable.  I would love to
see someone create a reasonably priced
and effective turbine.

It is the purpose of this group to explore
new areas of development.  I have no
doubts that somewhere, sometime, a
creative individual will design a turbine
that will produce an efficient amount of
energy. It will meet both Deans and
Nandos specifications 
Guy 


West Volusia Amateur Radio Society
DeLand Racing Pigeon Club
Mid-Florida Pigeon Racing Combine
Veggie zone 9A/9B
Wind Zone 1
http://bellsouthpwp2.net/n/4/n4gmu/


"When all else fails"


Everything will be fine in the end....
If it is not fine, it is not the end...
 
Some people confuse being healed, with being perfect.......

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Nandoi just made some reasearch on  Doug Selsam  on youtube,it is amazing
what he is doing!
the double shaft propeller  is innovative !
gervais

> To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@...
> From: nando37@...
> Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
> Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.
>
> dean:
>
> You may open the Pandora box.
>
> Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low and
the design of such wind mill is not practical.
>
> To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a special
generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
>
> Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of blades like
the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
>
> Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE necessity
of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities ( storm
wise) arrive .
>
> In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL" TPCH 
wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
>
> Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a low
cost.
>
> Nando
>
>
> ``
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Dean White
>   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
>   Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.
>
>
>
>
>   I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
>   3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on weather
>   this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
>   hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
>   plan.
>
>   Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
>
>   Dean White
>   Technical Lab Specialist
>   Wylie, Texas 75098
>
>
>   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential information.
The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If
you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by
telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You are
hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any
action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ==========================================================
> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> . Please feel free to send your input to:
>   small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
>   small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> . To view previous messages from the list,
>   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
>   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
>   (and read it on the Web), go to
>   http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
>   http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gervais:

The idea of multiple sets of blades has existed before but often without much
gain in energy harvesting because the blades setup separation needs to be
calculated and they are related to the blades profile and the size of the set
ups.

Indeed Doug did a lot of playing around to find some of the parameters to
optimize the harvesting though it is often difficult to change the mind of many
to accept a different concept and often to avoid acceptance they may say " It is
a nightmare" like I was told about the TPCH that I have been proposing for many
years.

In region where the winds streams are most of the time unidirectional , this due
to the ground and land distribution a wind mill with several sets of blades are
a great solution to harvest eolic energy including the one when the wind
velocity may be low.

Wind mills for omnidirectional use may have limitations with the number of
blades set ups due this to the length of the shaft and the required separation
between the blades set ups.

Doug has played with set ups that end up with a light to air balloons with a
dozen or more blades set ups just to show what can be done.

some of his patents are filled with different setups just to make sure that no
body copy his basic principle for the duration of his patents but I think that
he is not pursuing the maximizing financial benefits of his patents .

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: gervais fillion
   To: nando37@... ; small wind turbine groupe ; dean.white@...
   Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 07:34
   Subject: RE: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.


   Hi Nando
   i just made some reasearch on  Doug Selsam  on youtube,
   it is amazing what he is doing!


   the double shaft propeller  is innovative !


   gervais



   > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@...
   > From: nando37@...
   > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
   > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
   >
   > dean:
   >
   > You may open the Pandora box.
   >
   > Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low and
the design of such wind mill is not practical.
   >
   > To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a special
generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
   >
   > Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of blades
like the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
   >
   > Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE necessity
of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities ( storm
wise) arrive .
   >
   > In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL" TPCH
wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
   >
   > Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a low
cost.
   >
   > Nando
   >
   >
   > ``
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: Dean White
   > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
   > Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
   > 3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on weather
   > this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
   > hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
   > plan.
   >
   > Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
   >
   > Dean White
   > Technical Lab Specialist
   > Wylie, Texas 75098
   >
   >
   > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential information.
The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If
you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by
telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You are
hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any
action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > ==========================================================
   > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > . Please feel free to send your input to:
   > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
   > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > . To view previous messages from the list,
   > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
   > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
   > (and read it on the Web), go to
   > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
   > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
   > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
   >
   > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But is not the main issue what any one consumer sees?  If you can produce
high output at low winds and a consumer has low winds where he needs
electrical power(some large percentage of the US and China) then a low wind
scheme would apply directly to this consumer.  The power equation you
provide is assuming the same swept area.  You can increase the swept area
and increase your low wind power but creative minds have to take that power
at high winds and dump it safely without damage.  It is this dumping I want
to concentrate on.  Do you believe if it is perfected we can produce low
wind power reasonably (cheaply depending on the expense of the dumping
technique)?

Dean White

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential information. The
information is intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If you
have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to
arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You are hereby
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action
in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

Hi Guy,

At 3:52 AM -0700 6/10/12, Guy Johnson wrote:
>Dean and  Nando,
>This is not a rebuttal, just an observation.
>If you reread Deans email he is asking if
>there is a need and a market for a low
>wind turbine. The answer is most
>definitely!

To me, this is like asking if there's a market for a solar-electric
module that works inside a house. Sure! I'd love one!

But the REALITY is that there isn't enough light inside a house to
generate much of any electricity, and the cost of designing and
building a module that would collect that little bit of light energy
would be money wasted -- better spent on capturing sunlight outside
the house.

>I reside in Zone 1 (Little or no wind) and
>my efforts for wind turbine have been
>less than desirable.  I would love to
>see someone create a reasonably priced
>and effective turbine.

It sounds like you don't have a wind resource worth capturing, and
that's the answer.

>It is the purpose of this group to explore
>new areas of development.

Wisdom from Dan Bartman:
"Before you think outside the box, find out what's inside the box and why."

The wind "box" includes the reality of wind's cubic nature.
A few hundred years of wind development have shown us that trying to
capture very low -speed winds is not cost effective.

Regards,

Ian


>   I have no
>doubts that somewhere, sometime, a
>creative individual will design a turbine
>that will produce an efficient amount of
>energy. It will meet both Deans and
>Nandos specifications
>Guy
>
>West Volusia Amateur Radio Society
>DeLand Racing Pigeon Club
>Mid-Florida Pigeon Racing Combine
>Veggie zone 9A/9B
>Wind Zone 1
><http://bellsouthpwp2.net/n/4/n4gmu/>http://bellsouthpwp2.net/n/4/n4gmu/
>
>"When all else fails"
>
>Everything will be fine in the end....
>If it is not fine, it is not the end...
>
>Some people confuse being healed, with being perfect.......

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

             Hi Guy, Dean and All,

                         Yes there is a market but one still can't make energy
from nothing so you still need 8mph plus winds to make useful power.

                          I started building WG's,lived and made enough power
with my 60'' dia WG's to run lights, refridgerator and fans on my, others
liveaboard boats here  so there is a resource, just not a great one.
                        
                          I solved it by making the blades light so they would
start turning faster to catch any gusts before they go away with a great foil.

                          Another is using 5 blades helps light but hurts in
faster winds. Probably a fair idea here in Fla.  More blades than that and they
interfer? with each other reducing eff.  I'll make this an option on mine.

                         If you study your winds in Daytona? you'll find during
peak power demand the seabreeze combines with the trade winds for good power
right when needed there.  FPL is putting in WG's just for this resource as peak
power is so valuable, 5-10x's as much as steady power.  Even better wind follows
load on your coast as the temp inland rises increases winds, thus power.

                         Next is storms.  We get some good ones and 30 minutes
at peak power during them could put some serious amphrs in your batts, grid.

                        In Tampa the seabreeze pushes against the tradewinds and
with the land breeze at night.  We have northerners, storm winds and others
here.  But for the last few yrs our average winds have went up a lot and 3x's as
much westerly winds plus many other factors means past wind data isn't reliable
anymore.  Look south 2-300 miles might be better data of your future due to
already happening climate change.

                          Some say that's terrible but it's what we have so make
the best of it and those out west are spoiled by great wind.

                         Nando better, more eff twin rotor WG's have been made.
produced that Doug's like 4Winds WG's in the 80's.  It used one rotor to drive
the coils and the other to drive the magnets the opposite way. This gave 2x's
higher rpm to the generator and the rear rotor took advantage of the spin
induced by the front rotor because it turned opposite which Doug's doesn't for
higher eff. So their rotors and gen was more eff, better by at least 20%.

                         There are better in some ways WG's that are not
standard types like 4Winds as an example.

                          I think a WG with a much larger hub, say 1/3 of rotor
dia would feed faster air speeded up by the hub to the 1/3 dia blades.  Here 5
or more blades might work without screwing each other up and might be better in
light winds.  Add Doug's and that is 4 non standard WG's that work fairly well
to excellent.  But for power out/$ it's hard to beat a 3blade done right. 
Anything else almost has to be heavier, more complicated or not as eff or can't
survive a storm.

                         We are not against new idea, just against ones that
from basic physics can't work well enough.  I'd be happy to be proved wrong as
then I'd learn something.  But I'm not holding my breath waiting.    Well done
KIS, eff I think is the way.  The really good designer makes things more simple.
Anyone can make a complicated one. But which lasts longer, costs less?

                        Please snip other CC, etc other than list URL to keep
confusion down, offlist posts offlist.

                                                                                \
     Jerry Dycus
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Johnson <johnsonguysharon@...>
To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 6:52 AM
Subject: [s-w-h] Low ind turbine

Dean and  Nando,
This is not a rebuttal, just an observation.
If you reread Deans email he is asking if
there is a need and a market for a low
wind turbine. The answer is most
definitely!

I reside in Zone 1 (Little or no wind) and
my efforts for wind turbine have been
less than desirable.  I would love to
see someone create a reasonably priced
and effective turbine.

It is the purpose of this group to explore
new areas of development.  I have no
doubts that somewhere, sometime, a
creative individual will design a turbine
that will produce an efficient amount of
energy. It will meet both Deans and
Nandos specifications 
Guy 


West Volusia Amateur Radio Society
DeLand Racing Pigeon Club
Mid-Florida Pigeon Racing Combine
Veggie zone 9A/9B
Wind Zone 1
http://bellsouthpwp2.net/n/4/n4gmu/


"When all else fails"


Everything will be fine in the end....
If it is not fine, it is not the end...
 
Some people confuse being healed, with being perfect.......

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

==========================================================
THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
----------------------------------------------------------
. Please feel free to send your input to:
  small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
  small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
. To view previous messages from the list,
  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
  (and read it on the Web), go to
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  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

----------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

You are trying to give CPR to a moribund white elephant.

Of course there is a need for energy in areas where the wind is very low but the
energy harvested would be too little and too expensive to harvest it.

There is not an effective turbine for zone 1 -- for one: The need to calculate 
how much energy it can produce per square meter of wind mill area at the
velocity that is standard in such area.

CLASS 1 HAS A WIND POWER DENSITY UP TO 100 W/M^2 @ 10 METER HEIGHT

Power ( watts)= 0.5 * Area ( M^2) * Air density ( 1.1 kg/m^3 ) * Air vel( M/s ^3
)

Cleaning this formula  Watts = 0.5 * M^2* 1.1 kg/m^3 * (m/s)^3

Assume AREA= 1 m^2
assume wind velocity = 1 m/s

Power in watts = 0.5 *1 * 1.1 * 1^3 =  0.55 watts and We have not taken in
consideration the efficiency of the windmill, that may run around 0.37 therefore
0.37 * 0.55 = 0.2035 watts per square meter of wind mill swept area .

Lets assume that  we have a 3 m/s wind velocity : watts = 0.2035 * 3^3 = 0.2035
* 27 = 5.49 watts

If we use a wind mill with 1 meter blade length then the swept area will be 3.14
M^2 and the power 5.49 * 3.14 = 17,25 watt

3 m/s= 10.8 km/hour = 6.71 miles/hour

       Class 10 m (33 ft) 30 m (98 ft) 50 m (164 ft)
       Wind power density (W/m2) Speed m/s (mph) Wind power density (W/m2) Speed
m/s (mph) Wind power density (W/m2) Speed m/s (mph)
       1 0 - 100 0 - 4.4
       (0 - 9.8) 0 - 160 0 - 5.1
       (0 - 11.4) 0 - 200 0 - 5.6
       (0 - 12.5)
       2 100 - 150 4.4 - 5.1
       (9.8 - 11.5) 160 - 240 5.1 - 5.9
       (11.4 - 13.2) 200 - 300 5.6 - 6.4
       (12.5 - 14.3)
       3 150 - 200 5.1 - 5.6
       (11.5 - 12.5) 240 - 320 5.9 - 6.5
       (13.2 - 14.6) 300 - 400 6.4 - 7.0
       (14.3 - 15.7)
       4 200 - 250 5.6 - 6.0
       (12.5 - 13.4) 320 - 400 6.5 - 7.0
       (14.6 - 15.7) 400 - 500 7.0 - 7.5
       (15.7 - 16.8)
       5 250 - 300 6.0 - 6.4
       (13.4 - 14.3) 400 - 480 7.0 - 7.4
       (15.7 - 16.6) 500 - 600 7.5 - 8.0
       (16.8 - 17.9)
       6 300 - 400 6.4 - 7.0
       (14.3 - 15.7) 480 - 640 7.4 - 8.2
       (16.6 - 18.3) 600 - 800 8.0 - 8.8
       (17.9 - 19.7)
       7 400 - 1000 7.0 - 9.4
       (15.7 - 21.1) 640 - 1600 8.2 - 11.0
       (18.3 - 24.7) 800 - 2000 8.8 - 11.9
       (19.7 - 26.6)


Nando


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Guy Johnson
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 05:52
   Subject: [s-w-h] Low ind turbine



   Dean and  Nando,
   This is not a rebuttal, just an observation.
   If you reread Deans email he is asking if
   there is a need and a market for a low
   wind turbine. The answer is most
   definitely!

   I reside in Zone 1 (Little or no wind) and
   my efforts for wind turbine have been
   less than desirable.  I would love to
   see someone create a reasonably priced
   and effective turbine.

   It is the purpose of this group to explore
   new areas of development.  I have no
   doubts that somewhere, sometime, a
   creative individual will design a turbine
   that will produce an efficient amount of
   energy. It will meet both Deans and
   Nandos specifications
   Guy

   West Volusia Amateur Radio Society
   DeLand Racing Pigeon Club
   Mid-Florida Pigeon Racing Combine
   Veggie zone 9A/9B
   Wind Zone 1
   http://bellsouthpwp2.net/n/4/n4gmu/

   "When all else fails"

   Everything will be fine in the end....
   If it is not fine, it is not the end...

   Some people confuse being healed, with being perfect.......

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dean,

If you go to my "Perfect Turbine" page, you can see the kWh/mo that a
good turbine can produce.  Let's have the rubber meet the road here.

http://www.ndsu.edu/ndsu/klemen/Perfect_Turbine.htm

The chart is very straightforward.  This is the energy you can expect
to produce per month, per unit swept area with a Rayleigh wind speed

distribution for a GOOD turbine (total efficiency of 35%, which is pretty
optimistic over the entire range of wind speeds).  You can skip the Betz

column, because we're not tryingto break the rules.  :)


5 mph -> 2.65 kWh/mo/m^2

6 mph -> 4.74 kWh/mo/m^2

7 mph -> 7.70 kWh/mo/m^2

8 mph -> 11.66 kWh/mo/m^2

So it doesn't really matter how many square meters you collect.

If it's 1 square meter, and you expect your turbine to last 20 years,
in a 5 mph wind, you would generate


5 mph => 2.65 kWh/mo/m^2 * 1m^2 * 12 mo/yr * 20 years = 636 kWh


6 mph => 4.74kWh/mo/m^2 *  1m^2 * 12 mo/yr * 20 years = 1,137 kWh

at 20 cents per kWh, a 1 m^2 machine in  a 5 mph average wind

better cost less than 636*$0.20 = $127 to purchase and install,
with $0 in maintenance for 20 years!


at 20 cents per kWh, a 1 m^2 machine in a 6 mph average wind
better cost less than 1137*$0.20 = $227 to purchase and install,
with $0 in maintenance for 20 years!


at 20 cents per kWh, a 1 m^2 machine in an 8 mph average wind
better cost less than 2,798*$0.20 = $559 to purchase and install,
with $0 in maintenance for 20 years!


I hope this demonstrates the futility you are asking about.  Even if
you increase the swept area of the turbine accordingly, a 100 square
meter turbine ( 5.6 m [18.3 ft] radius, 11.2 m [37 ft] diameter) in a

5 mph site will still only generate 100 times the energy as the 1m^2

unit, so it could cost 100 times as much.  A 100 square meter turbine

would have to cost $12,700 to purchase and install, with zero

maintenance to generate electricity at $0.20/kWh, which is higher

than most everybody in the continental US (NY city is an exception). 

At 6 mph, install cost would have to be $22,700; and at 8 mph, total

installation and 20 year maintenance cost would have to be less

than $55,900 for break even!  [Of course, if you're paying $0.12 per

kWh, the installed cost at 8 mph would have to be $33,500.]


8 mph really is needed to talk about anything that might be able to be

cost effective.  As Doug said, even if you could put together a

windtrap that could capture low velocity winds, it can only do it effectively
if it also survives "high" winds.  That makes it not economical in low winds
areas.  Everybody gets thunderstorms and strong winds sometime.

Putting this in perspective, lets say you can get a solar panel at that

produces 14 watts per square foot (I randomly picked a Sharp 235W
module, at 17 square feet (1.62 square meters).  Assuming 3 sun hours
per day, 365 days a year for 20 years, it would produce

(235W/1000W/kW)*3*365*20 =5,146 kWh * $0.20/kWh = $1,029 installation
and maintenance cost.

Low wind energy capture doesn't make cents.  Pun intended!


I hope that helps!
Mike




________________________________
  From: Dean White <Dean.White@...>
To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 11:33 AM
Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.


But is not the main issue what any one consumer sees?  If you can produce
high output at low winds and a consumer has low winds where he needs
electrical power(some large percentage of the US and China) then a low wind
scheme would apply directly to this consumer.  The power equation you
provide is assuming the same swept area.  You can increase the swept area
and increase your low wind power but creative minds have to take that power
at high winds and dump it safely without damage.  It is this dumping I want
to concentrate on.  Do you believe if it is perfected we can produce low
wind power reasonably (cheaply depending on the expense of the dumping
technique)?

Dean White

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential information. The
information is intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If you
have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to
arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You are hereby
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action
in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.


------------------------------------

==========================================================
THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
----------------------------------------------------------
. Please feel free to send your input to:
  small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
  small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
. To view previous messages from the list,
  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
  (and read it on the Web), go to
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. An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

----------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the kind words, Gervais.
I found that making more power requires more overspeed protection.  We recently,
finally, got The SuperTwin(TM) to "give it up" (furl) sufficiently in high winds
to stop burning out stators.  It took a lot of burnt-out stators to finally
figure out how to get the geometry just right.

The challenge for every designer is to keep it producing well in light and
medium winds, while quickly letting almost all the power "blow by" in stronger
winds.  This challenge is not unique to multiple rotors, but is in fact common
to all turbines.  As I like to say, Overspeed protection is not the main thing,
it's the ONLY thing.  The "making power" part is a textbook exercise that anyone
can look up and accomplish by following standard and well-worn paths.

Anyway, I'm quite happy that we've chosen to take on the most punishing sites
possible, and make sure our turbines can survive there, before trying to market
them in large numbers.
:)
Doug Selsam

--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, gervais fillion <ve2ckn@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Nandoi just made some reasearch on  Doug Selsam  on youtube,it is amazing
what he is doing!
> the double shaft propeller  is innovative !
> gervais
>
> > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@...
> > From: nando37@...
> > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
> >
> > dean:
> >
> > You may open the Pandora box.
> >
> > Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low and
the design of such wind mill is not practical.
> >
> > To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a special
generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
> >
> > Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of blades
like the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
> >
> > Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE necessity
of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities ( storm
wise) arrive .
> >
> > In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL" TPCH 
wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
> >
> > Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a low
cost.
> >
> > Nando
> >
> >
> > ``
> >
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Dean White
> >   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
> >   Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
> >   3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on weather
> >   this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
> >   hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
> >   plan.
> >
> >   Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
> >
> >   Dean White
> >   Technical Lab Specialist
> >   Wylie, Texas 75098
> >
> >
> >   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential
information. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named
above. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us
by telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You
are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of
any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > ==========================================================
> > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > . Please feel free to send your input to:
> >   small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
> >   small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > . To view previous messages from the list,
> >   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
> >   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
> >   (and read it on the Web), go to
> >   http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
> > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
> >   http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In today's world ,saying that someone is doing a good job does not happen often
so why do we are saying much often!!!!!!!You remind me of a guy here that
started his company in his backyard and after 30 years his son took over and the
old man return in his garage ,working with his hand and his son proper his
company,,,
For the wind turbine,i have found the worst part is finding efficente
blade,aluminium or in plastic or what ever it looks like plastic.
here my wind destroy a set of 5 i baught from Missourri wind and solar: they did
not survive one of my winter wind  but after investigation i have much suspect
that i did not have adaquate control of the tail so they were enormous torsion
force on the blades themselves.But they should have survived,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in
the morning only one was left of the hub,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,i never found 3 of them
and one was on my neigbors terrain just on the other side of the road.
i found one of the key element of a good wind turbine is the tail ,or the
furling system ,it need to work perfectly if you want to catch all the wind you
have home that is why i am thinking of Vertical turbine,to gave it a try here
before my winter .

have a great day.continue your innovation.
english is not my language please be indulgent for my mistakes,
gervais

> To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> From: dougselsam@...
> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:44:25 +0000
> Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.
>
> Thanks for the kind words, Gervais.
> I found that making more power requires more overspeed protection.  We
recently, finally, got The SuperTwin(TM) to "give it up" (furl) sufficiently in
high winds to stop burning out stators.  It took a lot of burnt-out stators to
finally figure out how to get the geometry just right.
>
> The challenge for every designer is to keep it producing well in light and
medium winds, while quickly letting almost all the power "blow by" in stronger
winds.  This challenge is not unique to multiple rotors, but is in fact common
to all turbines.  As I like to say, Overspeed protection is not the main thing,
it's the ONLY thing.  The "making power" part is a textbook exercise that anyone
can look up and accomplish by following standard and well-worn paths.
>
> Anyway, I'm quite happy that we've chosen to take on the most punishing sites
possible, and make sure our turbines can survive there, before trying to market
them in large numbers.
> :)
> Doug Selsam
>
> --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, gervais fillion <ve2ckn@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Nandoi just made some reasearch on  Doug Selsam  on youtube,it is amazing
what he is doing!
> > the double shaft propeller  is innovative !
> > gervais
> >
> > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@...
> > > From: nando37@...
> > > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
> > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
> > >
> > > dean:
> > >
> > > You may open the Pandora box.
> > >
> > > Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low
and the design of such wind mill is not practical.
> > >
> > > To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a
special generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
> > >
> > > Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of blades
like the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
> > >
> > > Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE
necessity of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities
( storm wise) arrive .
> > >
> > > In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL" TPCH
wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
> > >
> > > Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a low
cost.
> > >
> > > Nando
> > >
> > >
> > > ``
> > >
> > >
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: Dean White
> > >   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > >   Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
> > >   Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
> > >   3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on
weather
> > >   this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
> > >   hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
> > >   plan.
> > >
> > >   Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
> > >
> > >   Dean White
> > >   Technical Lab Specialist
> > >   Wylie, Texas 75098
> > >
> > >
> > >   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential
information. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named
above. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us
by telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You
are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of
any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ==========================================================
> > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
> > >   small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
> > >   small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > . To view previous messages from the list,
> > >   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
> > >   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
> > >   (and read it on the Web), go to
> > >   http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
> > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
> > >   http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ==========================================================
> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> . Please feel free to send your input to:
>   small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
>   small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> . To view previous messages from the list,
>   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
>   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
>   (and read it on the Web), go to
>   http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
>   http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 
                         Hi Doug and All,
 
                                       Great to hear your progress.  We need a
nice selection of WG's at reasonable prices and I think a Super Twin would make
a good addition.
 
                                        While constant medium winds has it's
good points in testing, power production, Here in Tampa my test weather is about
to hit the fan.  Afternnoon summer thunderstoms regularly hit 60-100mph which
sorts out what works and what doesn't rather fast.   We might have average light
winds but at times it makes up for it  ;^P
 
                                        Nando average means just that.  You
still have good wind, just not as much, often as other areas.  No place actually
has average winds. 
 
                                        And if the last 3 yrs faster winds is
any indication our Fl wind resource is much higher than rated now since the
weather/climate  is changing.  This spring beat the old high temp by 2.5F and
the average by 5.6 IIRC so many may have to throw averages out the window.
 
                                         And thanks to Mike and Nando for the
great numbers they posted to put some meat on the bones that there really isn't
any worthwhile power under 8mph.
                                                                                \
     Jerry Dycus
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:44 PM
Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.

Thanks for the kind words, Gervais.
I found that making more power requires more overspeed protection.  We recently,
finally, got The SuperTwin(TM) to "give it up" (furl) sufficiently in high winds
to stop burning out stators.  It took a lot of burnt-out stators to finally
figure out how to get the geometry just right. 

The challenge for every designer is to keep it producing well in light and
medium winds, while quickly letting almost all the power "blow by" in stronger
winds.  This challenge is not unique to multiple rotors, but is in fact common
to all turbines.  As I like to say, Overspeed protection is not the main thing,
it's the ONLY thing.  The "making power" part is a textbook exercise that anyone
can look up and accomplish by following standard and well-worn paths.

Anyway, I'm quite happy that we've chosen to take on the most punishing sites
possible, and make sure our turbines can survive there, before trying to market
them in large numbers. 
:)
Doug Selsam

--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, gervais fillion <ve2ckn@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Nandoi just made some reasearch on  Doug Selsam  on youtube,it is amazing
what he is doing!
> the double shaft propeller  is innovative !
> gervais
>
> > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@...
> > From: nando37@...
> > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
> >
> > dean:
> >
> > You may open the Pandora box.
> >
> > Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low and
the design of such wind mill is not practical.
> >
> > To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a special
generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
> >
> > Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of blades
like the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
> >
> > Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE necessity
of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities ( storm
wise) arrive .
> >
> > In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL" TPCH 
wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
> >
> > Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a low
cost.
> >
> > Nando
> >
> >
> > ``
> >
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Dean White
> >   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
> >   Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.
> >
> >
> >   
> >
> >   I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
> >   3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on weather
> >   this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
> >   hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
> >   plan.
> >
> >   Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
> >
> >   Dean White
> >   Technical Lab Specialist
> >   Wylie, Texas 75098
> >
> >
> >   CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential
information. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named
above. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us
by telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You
are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of
any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited.
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > ==========================================================
> > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > . Please feel free to send your input to:
> >  small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
> >  small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > . To view previous messages from the list,
> >   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
> >   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
> >   (and read it on the Web), go to
> >  http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home . 
> > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
> >  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>                           
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




------------------------------------

==========================================================
THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
----------------------------------------------------------
. Please feel free to send your input to:
  small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
  small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
. To view previous messages from the list,
  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
  (and read it on the Web), go to
  http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home . 
. An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

----------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To all:

  I have been quite worried in presenting alternative ideas for wind mills
because the Betz  limiting factor but there are many people trying to circumvent
such power limitations in  a wind mill

In Japan for example, in one of the Universities they have a wind mill with an
annulus ring to force the wind to produce a low pressure behind the blades to
increase the energy production 2 or 3 fold .

The principle is sound but the fabrication of such wind mill represent something
like "what some body said few days back" , here in the group, a "nightmare"
because the additional parts required to increase such power harvesting that in
some cases it is best to use an additional  wind mill.

http://www.nextworldtv.com/page/10973.html

The basic idea is to "remove" the back pressure from the wind mill wind velocity
which allows to flow of air through the internal ring area -- and if a "kind of
Vacuum " is present the air velocity is increased due to the necessity of
maintaining equal pressure and air volume in the surrounding area of the wind
mill

If we down load this article and find  "equation 1"



www.africantechnologyforum.com_windhns1_.pdf

F= r*A* Vax * (Vi- V2)  we see the difference in power before and after the
rotor is the power extracted by the wind mill which EQUALS THE PRODUCT OF THE
THRUST FORCE (F) and the velocity ( Vx)

For those interested in really learning how the wind behave and what type of
variations can be obtained when changing some of the parameters like in this
case the down wind volume density behind the rotor blades one can learn ways how
to increase the generated output power and still behaving well with Betz  but
showing ways of how Betz limitation of 17/27 = 0,593 can be increased under well
defined conditions.

So Betz is there but the modifications of some of the parameters permit the
incrementing of the Betz limits within the determining parameters utilized by
Betz to define such limits.

I am interested in reading comments regarding this principle right now being
used by some universities to obtain power above the Betz limit -- that in
reality still is a Betz limit within the definition of the Betz limits.

Nando




   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jerry freedomev
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 21:16
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.




                            Hi Doug and All,

                                          Great to hear your progress.  We need a
nice selection of WG's at reasonable prices and I think a Super Twin would make
a good addition.

                                           While constant medium winds has it's
good points in testing, power production, Here in Tampa my test weather is about
to hit the fan.  Afternnoon summer thunderstoms regularly hit 60-100mph which
sorts out what works and what doesn't rather fast.   We might have average light
winds but at times it makes up for it  ;^P

                                           Nando average means just that.  You
still have good wind, just not as much, often as other areas.  No place actually
has average winds.

                                           And if the last 3 yrs faster winds is
any indication our Fl wind resource is much higher than rated now since the
weather/climate  is changing.  This spring beat the old high temp by 2.5F and
the average by 5.6 IIRC so many may have to throw averages out the window.

                                            And thanks to Mike and Nando for the
great numbers they posted to put some meat on the bones that there really isn't
any worthwhile power under 8mph.
                                                                                       
Jerry Dycus

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Cc:
   Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:44 PM
   Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.

   Thanks for the kind words, Gervais.
   I found that making more power requires more overspeed protection.  We
recently, finally, got The SuperTwin(TM) to "give it up" (furl) sufficiently in
high winds to stop burning out stators.  It took a lot of burnt-out stators to
finally figure out how to get the geometry just right.

   The challenge for every designer is to keep it producing well in light and
medium winds, while quickly letting almost all the power "blow by" in stronger
winds.  This challenge is not unique to multiple rotors, but is in fact common
to all turbines.  As I like to say, Overspeed protection is not the main thing,
it's the ONLY thing.  The "making power" part is a textbook exercise that anyone
can look up and accomplish by following standard and well-worn paths.

   Anyway, I'm quite happy that we've chosen to take on the most punishing sites
possible, and make sure our turbines can survive there, before trying to market
them in large numbers.
   :)
   Doug Selsam

   --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, gervais fillion <ve2ckn@...> wrote:
   >
   >
   > Hi Nandoi just made some reasearch on  Doug Selsam  on youtube,it is amazing
what he is doing!
   > the double shaft propeller  is innovative !
   > gervais
   >
   > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@...
   > > From: nando37@...
   > > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
   > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
   > >
   > > dean:
   > >
   > > You may open the Pandora box.
   > >
   > > Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low
and the design of such wind mill is not practical.
   > >
   > > To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a
special generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
   > >
   > > Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of blades
like the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
   > >
   > > Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE
necessity of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities
( storm wise) arrive .
   > >
   > > In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL" TPCH
wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
   > >
   > > Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a low
cost.
   > >
   > > Nando
   > >
   > >
   > > ``
   > >
   > >
   > >  ----- Original Message -----
   > >  From: Dean White
   > >  To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > >  Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
   > >  Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >  I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
   > >  3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on
weather
   > >  this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
   > >  hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
   > >  plan.
   > >
   > >  Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
   > >
   > >  Dean White
   > >  Technical Lab Specialist
   > >  Wylie, Texas 75098
   > >
   > >
   > >  CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential
information. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named
above. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us
by telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You
are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of
any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited.
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > ------------------------------------
   > >
   > > ==========================================================
   > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   > > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
   > >  small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
   > >  small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > > . To view previous messages from the list,
   > >  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
   > >  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
   > >  (and read it on the Web), go to
   > >  http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
   > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
   > >  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
   > >
   > > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >

   ------------------------------------

   ==========================================================
   THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   . Please feel free to send your input to:
     small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
     small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   . To view previous messages from the list,
     subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
     or stop receiving the list by e-mail
     (and read it on the Web), go to
     http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
   . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
     http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

   ----------------------------------------------------------
   Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nando:
I think the Betz limit comes down to just common sense, with numbers applied. 
Seems to me we've discussed many times, over many years, the fact that any wind
energy system has a total intercepted area, and one cannot expect to beat Betz
based on that total intercepted area, regardless of whether the hardware that
intercepts that area is a naked rotor, an augmenting ring, an upwind funnel to
increase upwind pressure, a downwind funnel to decrease downwind pressure
(vacuum diffuser), etc.

Seems to me the MIT crowd and any other "Professor Crackpots" out there who step
in, new to the art, always wanna repeat the same old common mistakes in thinking
and design.  How many times have we seen someone claim to beat Betz by adding an
upwind concentrator or downwind diffuser, or both (annular ring) imagining that
they, with their "unique insight", can step newly into a beaten-to-death
3000-year-old field, and somehow immediately stumble across something so simple
as adding a funnel to channel wind through a rotor, and in the process re-define
the Betz coefficient as pertaining only to the rotor diameter, and that their
funnel is a "new" idea, and that a funnel helps a rotor "beat Betz".

Nando, I am surprised to hear you, with all your experience in wind energy, talk
this way.
:)
Doug Selsam

--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
>
> To all:
>
>  I have been quite worried in presenting alternative ideas for wind mills
because the Betz  limiting factor but there are many people trying to circumvent
such power limitations in  a wind mill
>
> In Japan for example, in one of the Universities they have a wind mill with an
annulus ring to force the wind to produce a low pressure behind the blades to
increase the energy production 2 or 3 fold .
>
> The principle is sound but the fabrication of such wind mill represent
something like "what some body said few days back" , here in the group, a
"nightmare" because the additional parts required to increase such power
harvesting that in some cases it is best to use an additional  wind mill.
>
> http://www.nextworldtv.com/page/10973.html
>
> The basic idea is to "remove" the back pressure from the wind mill wind
velocity which allows to flow of air through the internal ring area -- and if a
"kind of Vacuum " is present the air velocity is increased due to the necessity
of maintaining equal pressure and air volume in the surrounding area of the wind
mill
>
> If we down load this article and find  "equation 1"
>
>
>
> www.africantechnologyforum.com_windhns1_.pdf
>
> F= r*A* Vax * (Vi- V2)  we see the difference in power before and after the
rotor is the power extracted by the wind mill which EQUALS THE PRODUCT OF THE
THRUST FORCE (F) and the velocity ( Vx)
>
> For those interested in really learning how the wind behave and what type of
variations can be obtained when changing some of the parameters like in this
case the down wind volume density behind the rotor blades one can learn ways how
to increase the generated output power and still behaving well with Betz  but
showing ways of how Betz limitation of 17/27 = 0,593 can be increased under well
defined conditions.
>
> So Betz is there but the modifications of some of the parameters permit the
incrementing of the Betz limits within the determining parameters utilized by
Betz to define such limits.
>
> I am interested in reading comments regarding this principle right now being
used by some universities to obtain power above the Betz limit -- that in
reality still is a Betz limit within the definition of the Betz limits.
>
> Nando
>
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jerry freedomev
>   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 21:16
>   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
>
>
>
>
>                            Hi Doug and All,
>
>                                          Great to hear your progress.  We need
a nice selection of WG's at reasonable prices and I think a Super Twin would
make a good addition.
>
>                                           While constant medium winds has it's
good points in testing, power production, Here in Tampa my test weather is about
to hit the fan.  Afternnoon summer thunderstoms regularly hit 60-100mph which
sorts out what works and what doesn't rather fast.   We might have average light
winds but at times it makes up for it  ;^P
>
>                                           Nando average means just that.  You
still have good wind, just not as much, often as other areas.  No place actually
has average winds.
>
>                                           And if the last 3 yrs faster winds
is any indication our Fl wind resource is much higher than rated now since the
weather/climate  is changing.  This spring beat the old high temp by 2.5F and
the average by 5.6 IIRC so many may have to throw averages out the window.
>
>                                            And thanks to Mike and Nando for
the great numbers they posted to put some meat on the bones that there really
isn't any worthwhile power under 8mph.
>
Jerry Dycus
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
>   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>   Cc:
>   Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:44 PM
>   Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
>
>   Thanks for the kind words, Gervais.
>   I found that making more power requires more overspeed protection.  We
recently, finally, got The SuperTwin(TM) to "give it up" (furl) sufficiently in
high winds to stop burning out stators.  It took a lot of burnt-out stators to
finally figure out how to get the geometry just right.
>
>   The challenge for every designer is to keep it producing well in light and
medium winds, while quickly letting almost all the power "blow by" in stronger
winds.  This challenge is not unique to multiple rotors, but is in fact common
to all turbines.  As I like to say, Overspeed protection is not the main thing,
it's the ONLY thing.  The "making power" part is a textbook exercise that anyone
can look up and accomplish by following standard and well-worn paths.
>
>   Anyway, I'm quite happy that we've chosen to take on the most punishing
sites possible, and make sure our turbines can survive there, before trying to
market them in large numbers.
>   :)
>   Doug Selsam
>
>   --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, gervais fillion <ve2ckn@> wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   > Hi Nandoi just made some reasearch on  Doug Selsam  on youtube,it is
amazing what he is doing!
>   > the double shaft propeller  is innovative !
>   > gervais
>   >
>   > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@
>   > > From: nando37@
>   > > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
>   > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
>   > >
>   > > dean:
>   > >
>   > > You may open the Pandora box.
>   > >
>   > > Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low
and the design of such wind mill is not practical.
>   > >
>   > > To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a
special generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
>   > >
>   > > Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of
blades like the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
>   > >
>   > > Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE
necessity of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities
( storm wise) arrive .
>   > >
>   > > In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL"
TPCH  wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
>   > >
>   > > Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a
low cost.
>   > >
>   > > Nando
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > ``
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >  ----- Original Message -----
>   > >  From: Dean White
>   > >  To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>   > >  Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
>   > >  Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >  I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
>   > >  3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on
weather
>   > >  this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
>   > >  hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
>   > >  plan.
>   > >
>   > >  Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
>   > >
>   > >  Dean White
>   > >  Technical Lab Specialist
>   > >  Wylie, Texas 75098
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >  CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential
information. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named
above. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us
by telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You
are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of
any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > ------------------------------------
>   > >
>   > > ==========================================================
>   > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
>   > > ----------------------------------------------------------
>   > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
>   > >  small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>   > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
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>   > >  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
>   > >  (and read it on the Web), go to
>   > >  http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
>   > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
>   > >  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
>   > >
>   > > ----------------------------------------------------------
>   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>
>   ------------------------------------
>
>   ==========================================================
>   THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
>   ----------------------------------------------------------
>   . Please feel free to send your input to:
>     small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>   . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
>     small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   . To view previous messages from the list,
>     subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
>     or stop receiving the list by e-mail
>     (and read it on the Web), go to
>     http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
>   . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
>     http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
>
>   ----------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I need to correct the site :

http://www.africantechnologyforum.com/

It should be : http://www.africantechnologyforum.com/ESME/windhns1/WindHns1.htm
to be able to down load the WIND ENERGY HARNESSING - THEORY AND THE ETHIOPIAN
EXPERIENCE

I made a PDF and if interested send a request to me to get a copy.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Nando
   To: jerry freedomev ; small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:11
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.



   To all:

   I have been quite worried in presenting alternative ideas for wind mills
because the Betz limiting factor but there are many people trying to circumvent
such power limitations in a wind mill

   In Japan for example, in one of the Universities they have a wind mill with an
annulus ring to force the wind to produce a low pressure behind the blades to
increase the energy production 2 or 3 fold .

   The principle is sound but the fabrication of such wind mill represent
something like "what some body said few days back" , here in the group, a
"nightmare" because the additional parts required to increase such power
harvesting that in some cases it is best to use an additional wind mill.

   http://www.nextworldtv.com/page/10973.html

   The basic idea is to "remove" the back pressure from the wind mill wind
velocity which allows to flow of air through the internal ring area -- and if a
"kind of Vacuum " is present the air velocity is increased due to the necessity
of maintaining equal pressure and air volume in the surrounding area of the wind
mill

   If we down load this article and find "equation 1"

   www.africantechnologyforum.com_windhns1_.pdf

   F= r*A* Vax * (Vi- V2) we see the difference in power before and after the
rotor is the power extracted by the wind mill which EQUALS THE PRODUCT OF THE
THRUST FORCE (F) and the velocity ( Vx)

   For those interested in really learning how the wind behave and what type of
variations can be obtained when changing some of the parameters like in this
case the down wind volume density behind the rotor blades one can learn ways how
to increase the generated output power and still behaving well with Betz but
showing ways of how Betz limitation of 17/27 = 0,593 can be increased under well
defined conditions.

   So Betz is there but the modifications of some of the parameters permit the
incrementing of the Betz limits within the determining parameters utilized by
Betz to define such limits.

   I am interested in reading comments regarding this principle right now being
used by some universities to obtain power above the Betz limit -- that in
reality still is a Betz limit within the definition of the Betz limits.

   Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jerry freedomev
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 21:16
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.

   Hi Doug and All,

   Great to hear your progress. We need a nice selection of WG's at reasonable
prices and I think a Super Twin would make a good addition.

   While constant medium winds has it's good points in testing, power production,
Here in Tampa my test weather is about to hit the fan. Afternnoon summer
thunderstoms regularly hit 60-100mph which sorts out what works and what doesn't
rather fast. We might have average light winds but at times it makes up for it
;^P

   Nando average means just that. You still have good wind, just not as much,
often as other areas. No place actually has average winds.

   And if the last 3 yrs faster winds is any indication our Fl wind resource is
much higher than rated now since the weather/climate is changing. This spring
beat the old high temp by 2.5F and the average by 5.6 IIRC so many may have to
throw averages out the window.

   And thanks to Mike and Nando for the great numbers they posted to put some
meat on the bones that there really isn't any worthwhile power under 8mph.
   Jerry Dycus

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Cc:
   Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:44 PM
   Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.

   Thanks for the kind words, Gervais.
   I found that making more power requires more overspeed protection. We
recently, finally, got The SuperTwin(TM) to "give it up" (furl) sufficiently in
high winds to stop burning out stators. It took a lot of burnt-out stators to
finally figure out how to get the geometry just right.

   The challenge for every designer is to keep it producing well in light and
medium winds, while quickly letting almost all the power "blow by" in stronger
winds. This challenge is not unique to multiple rotors, but is in fact common to
all turbines. As I like to say, Overspeed protection is not the main thing, it's
the ONLY thing. The "making power" part is a textbook exercise that anyone can
look up and accomplish by following standard and well-worn paths.

   Anyway, I'm quite happy that we've chosen to take on the most punishing sites
possible, and make sure our turbines can survive there, before trying to market
them in large numbers.
   :)
   Doug Selsam

   --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, gervais fillion <ve2ckn@...> wrote:
   >
   >
   > Hi Nandoi just made some reasearch on Doug Selsam on youtube,it is amazing
what he is doing!
   > the double shaft propeller is innovative !
   > gervais
   >
   > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@...
   > > From: nando37@...
   > > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
   > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
   > >
   > > dean:
   > >
   > > You may open the Pandora box.
   > >
   > > Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low
and the design of such wind mill is not practical.
   > >
   > > To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a
special generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
   > >
   > > Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of blades
like the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
   > >
   > > Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE
necessity of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities
( storm wise) arrive .
   > >
   > > In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL" TPCH
wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
   > >
   > > Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a low
cost.
   > >
   > > Nando
   > >
   > >
   > > ``
   > >
   > >
   > > ----- Original Message -----
   > > From: Dean White
   > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
   > > Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
   > > 3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on weather
   > > this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
   > > hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
   > > plan.
   > >
   > > Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
   > >
   > > Dean White
   > > Technical Lab Specialist
   > > Wylie, Texas 75098
   > >
   > >
   > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential
information. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named
above. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us
by telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You
are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of
any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited.
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > ------------------------------------
   > >
   > > ==========================================================
   > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   > > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
   > > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
   > > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > > . To view previous messages from the list,
   > > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
   > > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
   > > (and read it on the Web), go to
   > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
   > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
   > > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
   > >
   > > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >

   ------------------------------------

   ==========================================================
   THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   . Please feel free to send your input to:
   small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
   small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   . To view previous messages from the list,
   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
   (and read it on the Web), go to
   http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
   . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
   http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

   ----------------------------------------------------------
   Yahoo! Groups Links

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doug:

Heck, I was praying that you either were drunk or sleeping and not to reply to
this message for at least two days.

I made a mistake of not sending you a message asking you not to respond to my
message.

I put this message for some members to read and think what really Betz is and
how Betz can be modified and still be Betz with the limits and augmentation
schemes to attain , from the point of view of many, a high Betz limit, though
NOT in reality an increment in the Betz limit.

Then why I say this ?.  that is the question and the answer to be given with
some logical analysis.

Nando


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Doug
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 14:25
   Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.



   Nando:
   I think the Betz limit comes down to just common sense, with numbers applied.
Seems to me we've discussed many times, over many years, the fact that any wind
energy system has a total intercepted area, and one cannot expect to beat Betz
based on that total intercepted area, regardless of whether the hardware that
intercepts that area is a naked rotor, an augmenting ring, an upwind funnel to
increase upwind pressure, a downwind funnel to decrease downwind pressure
(vacuum diffuser), etc.

   Seems to me the MIT crowd and any other "Professor Crackpots" out there who
step in, new to the art, always wanna repeat the same old common mistakes in
thinking and design. How many times have we seen someone claim to beat Betz by
adding an upwind concentrator or downwind diffuser, or both (annular ring)
imagining that they, with their "unique insight", can step newly into a
beaten-to-death 3000-year-old field, and somehow immediately stumble across
something so simple as adding a funnel to channel wind through a rotor, and in
the process re-define the Betz coefficient as pertaining only to the rotor
diameter, and that their funnel is a "new" idea, and that a funnel helps a rotor
"beat Betz".

   Nando, I am surprised to hear you, with all your experience in wind energy,
talk this way.
   :)
   Doug Selsam

   --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
   >
   > To all:
   >
   > I have been quite worried in presenting alternative ideas for wind mills
because the Betz limiting factor but there are many people trying to circumvent
such power limitations in a wind mill
   >
   > In Japan for example, in one of the Universities they have a wind mill with
an annulus ring to force the wind to produce a low pressure behind the blades to
increase the energy production 2 or 3 fold .
   >
   > The principle is sound but the fabrication of such wind mill represent
something like "what some body said few days back" , here in the group, a
"nightmare" because the additional parts required to increase such power
harvesting that in some cases it is best to use an additional wind mill.
   >
   > http://www.nextworldtv.com/page/10973.html
   >
   > The basic idea is to "remove" the back pressure from the wind mill wind
velocity which allows to flow of air through the internal ring area -- and if a
"kind of Vacuum " is present the air velocity is increased due to the necessity
of maintaining equal pressure and air volume in the surrounding area of the wind
mill
   >
   > If we down load this article and find "equation 1"
   >
   >
   >
   > www.africantechnologyforum.com_windhns1_.pdf
   >
   > F= r*A* Vax * (Vi- V2) we see the difference in power before and after the
rotor is the power extracted by the wind mill which EQUALS THE PRODUCT OF THE
THRUST FORCE (F) and the velocity ( Vx)
   >
   > For those interested in really learning how the wind behave and what type of
variations can be obtained when changing some of the parameters like in this
case the down wind volume density behind the rotor blades one can learn ways how
to increase the generated output power and still behaving well with Betz but
showing ways of how Betz limitation of 17/27 = 0,593 can be increased under well
defined conditions.
   >
   > So Betz is there but the modifications of some of the parameters permit the
incrementing of the Betz limits within the determining parameters utilized by
Betz to define such limits.
   >
   > I am interested in reading comments regarding this principle right now being
used by some universities to obtain power above the Betz limit -- that in
reality still is a Betz limit within the definition of the Betz limits.
   >
   > Nando
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: jerry freedomev
   > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 21:16
   > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > Hi Doug and All,
   >
   > Great to hear your progress. We need a nice selection of WG's at reasonable
prices and I think a Super Twin would make a good addition.
   >
   > While constant medium winds has it's good points in testing, power
production, Here in Tampa my test weather is about to hit the fan. Afternnoon
summer thunderstoms regularly hit 60-100mph which sorts out what works and what
doesn't rather fast. We might have average light winds but at times it makes up
for it ;^P
   >
   > Nando average means just that. You still have good wind, just not as much,
often as other areas. No place actually has average winds.
   >
   > And if the last 3 yrs faster winds is any indication our Fl wind resource is
much higher than rated now since the weather/climate is changing. This spring
beat the old high temp by 2.5F and the average by 5.6 IIRC so many may have to
throw averages out the window.
   >
   > And thanks to Mike and Nando for the great numbers they posted to put some
meat on the bones that there really isn't any worthwhile power under 8mph.
   > Jerry Dycus
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
   > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > Cc:
   > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:44 PM
   > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
   >
   > Thanks for the kind words, Gervais.
   > I found that making more power requires more overspeed protection. We
recently, finally, got The SuperTwin(TM) to "give it up" (furl) sufficiently in
high winds to stop burning out stators. It took a lot of burnt-out stators to
finally figure out how to get the geometry just right.
   >
   > The challenge for every designer is to keep it producing well in light and
medium winds, while quickly letting almost all the power "blow by" in stronger
winds. This challenge is not unique to multiple rotors, but is in fact common to
all turbines. As I like to say, Overspeed protection is not the main thing, it's
the ONLY thing. The "making power" part is a textbook exercise that anyone can
look up and accomplish by following standard and well-worn paths.
   >
   > Anyway, I'm quite happy that we've chosen to take on the most punishing
sites possible, and make sure our turbines can survive there, before trying to
market them in large numbers.
   > :)
   > Doug Selsam
   >
   > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, gervais fillion <ve2ckn@> wrote:
   > >
   > >
   > > Hi Nandoi just made some reasearch on Doug Selsam on youtube,it is amazing
what he is doing!
   > > the double shaft propeller is innovative !
   > > gervais
   > >
   > > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com; Dean.White@
   > > > From: nando37@
   > > > Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:38:56 -0500
   > > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
   > > >
   > > > dean:
   > > >
   > > > You may open the Pandora box.
   > > >
   > > > Wind at low wind velocities the power that can be harvested is quite low
and the design of such wind mill is not practical.
   > > >
   > > > To Obtain "some" power You need to have a large diameter mill and a
special generator -- for proper marriage of both !!
   > > >
   > > > Some solutions for such wind harvester is to have multiple sets of
blades like the type that Doug Selsam builds and have patented.
   > > >
   > > > Still, the need to marry blades and generator -- then the ABSOLUTE
necessity of having a wind mill that can be protected when high wind velocities
( storm wise) arrive .
   > > >
   > > > In this case you may not be able to use a furling type by a :SPECIAL"
TPCH wind mill capable of High stalling capabilities.
   > > >
   > > > Therefore the low wind generator system is not practical to build at a
low cost.
   > > >
   > > > Nando
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > ``
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > ----- Original Message -----
   > > > From: Dean White
   > > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > > > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 11:59
   > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > I believe I see a need for a low wind generator series. Starting around
   > > > 3mph and generating 800W at 12 mph. I am interested in feedback on
weather
   > > > this seems like a good market and pitfalls from those before me. I am
   > > > hoping to gain enough wisdom to have a reasonable start to the company
   > > > plan.
   > > >
   > > > Thank you in advance for your advice and direction.
   > > >
   > > > Dean White
   > > > Technical Lab Specialist
   > > > Wylie, Texas 75098
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This transmission contains confidential
information. The information is intended only for the use of the recipient named
above. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us
by telephone to arrange for return of the confidential information to us. You
are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of
any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited.
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > ------------------------------------
   > > >
   > > > ==========================================================
   > > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
   > > > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
   > > > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > > > . To view previous messages from the list,
   > > > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
   > > > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
   > > > (and read it on the Web), go to
   > > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
   > > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
   > > > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
   > > >
   > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > >
   > >
   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > ==========================================================
   > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > . Please feel free to send your input to:
   > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
   > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > . To view previous messages from the list,
   > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
   > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
   > (and read it on the Web), go to
   > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
   > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
   > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
   >
   > ----------------------------------------------------------
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello.
Approximately 2004 (2007 ?) , Mike
Bergey wrote a post which drew attention to a study  which
reviewed certain developments in the
U.S. PV cell manufacturing industry , and included a chart which
graphically illustrated how the
American share of world PV manufacturing declined as the world market
grew.

The paper was written by an American
woman researcher , possibly in SERI , NREL , EIA , AWEA,
or some such . My efforts to find the
paper (or its link) have been in vain.

Recognizing that this plea for research
assistance is somewhat off-topic ...
i would be happy to field suggestions
for more apt places to inquire !

Thanks ,
Tom  m


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                             Hi Doug, Nando and All,

 

________________________________
  From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 3:25 PM
Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing company.


Nando:
I think the Betz limit comes down to just common sense, with numbers applied. 
Seems to me we've discussed many times, over many years, the fact that any wind
energy system has a total intercepted area, and one cannot expect to beat Betz
based on that total intercepted area, regardless of whether the hardware that
intercepts that area is a naked rotor, an augmenting ring, an upwind funnel to
increase upwind pressure, a downwind funnel to decrease downwind pressure
(vacuum diffuser), etc.

Seems to me the MIT crowd and any other "Professor Crackpots" out there who step
in, new to the art, always wanna repeat the same old common mistakes in thinking
and design.  How many times have we seen someone claim to beat Betz by adding an
upwind concentrator or downwind diffuser, or both (annular ring) imagining that
they, with their "unique insight", can step newly into a beaten-to-death
3000-year-old field, and somehow immediately stumble across something so simple
as adding a funnel to channel wind through a rotor, and in the process re-define
the Betz coefficient as pertaining only to the rotor diameter, and that their
funnel is a "new" idea, and that a funnel helps a rotor "beat Betz".

Nando, I am surprised to hear you, with all your experience in wind energy, talk
this way.
:)
Doug Selsam

      --------------------------  I'm with Doug here. What are you thinking
Nando? More below

--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
>
> To all:
>
>  I have been quite worried in presenting alternative ideas for wind mills
because the Betz  limiting factor but there are many people trying to circumvent
such power limitations in  a wind mill
>
> In Japan for example, in one of the Universities they have a wind mill with an
annulus ring to force the wind to produce a low pressure behind the blades to
increase the energy production 2 or 3 fold .
>
> The principle is sound but the fabrication of such wind mill represent
something like "what some body said few days back" , here in the group, a
"nightmare" because the additional parts required to increase such power
harvesting that in some cases it is best to use an additional  wind mill.
>
> http://www.nextworldtv.com/page/10973.html
>
> The basic idea is to "remove" the back pressure from the wind mill wind
velocity which allows to flow of air through the internal ring area -- and if a
"kind of Vacuum " is present the air velocity is increased due to the necessity
of maintaining equal pressure and air volume in the surrounding area of the wind
mill
>

----------------------  This is a bunch of bull.   It probably won't even make
as much as a 3blade without the  ring.  What they call a vaccum is stopped air,
not neg pressure but likely positive instead.  Beating Bletz, not a chance. 


> If we down load this article and find  "equation 1"
>
>
>
> www.africantechnologyforum.com_windhns1_.pdf
>
> F= r*A* Vax * (Vi- V2)  we see the difference in power before and after the
rotor is the power extracted by the wind mill which EQUALS THE PRODUCT OF THE
THRUST FORCE (F) and the velocity ( Vx)
>
> For those interested in really learning how the wind behave and what type of
variations can be obtained when changing some of the parameters like in this
case the down wind volume density behind the rotor blades one can learn ways how
to increase the generated output power and still behaving well with Betz  but
showing ways of how Betz limitation of 17/27 = 0,593 can be increased under well
defined conditions.
>
> So Betz is there but the modifications of some of the parameters permit the
incrementing of the Betz limits within the determining parameters utilized by
Betz to define such limits.
>
> I am interested in reading comments regarding this principle right now being
used by some universities to obtain power above the Betz limit -- that in
reality still is a Betz limit within the definition of the Betz limits.
>
> Nando
>
----------------  They lie and you got fooled.   Can't you just think about this
and see what's wrong.  Air goes to the least resistance which in this case is
around the unit more, not sucked through. As for the African Tech it is even
worse.  A 3blade running an air lift pump could pump more for less.  
                    Rings are great in propulsion but for driving, not so much. 
I use them on boat props to increase thrust but that is a completely different
kettle of fish.
                      Nando please stop using more than 1 send location, the
list and no CC's.  Your multiple CC posts I, other have to deal with is a pain
for us and the moderators.  Edit the posts too as they are way too long of old
stuff.

                                                                 Jerry Dycus


>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jerry freedomev
>   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 21:16
>   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Want to start a low wind generator manufacturing
company.
>
>
>   
>
>                            Hi Doug and All,
>   
>                                          Great to hear your progress.  We need
a nice selection of WG's at reasonable prices and I think a Super Twin would
make a good addition.
>   
>                                           While constant medium winds has it's
good points in testing, power production, Here in Tampa my test weather is about
to hit the fan.  Afternnoon summer thunderstoms regularly hit 60-100mph which
sorts out what works and what doesn't rather fast.   We might have average light
winds but at times it makes up for it  ;^P
>   
>                                           Nando average means just that.  You
still have good wind, just not as much, often as other areas.  No place actually
has average winds.
>   
>                                           And if the last 3 yrs faster winds
is any indication our Fl wind resource is much higher than rated now since the
weather/climate  is changing.  This spring beat the old high temp by 2.5F and
the average by 5.6 IIRC so many may have to throw averages out the window.
>   
>                                            And thanks to Mike and Nando for
the great numbers they posted to put some meat on the bones that there really
isn't any worthwhile power under 8mph.
>                                                                               
        Jerry Dycus
>   
>

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Are there any list members at The Energy Fair in Wisconsin this weekend?

If so, stop by the Home Power booth and say hello -- I'd like to
connect with you.

Regards,

Ian

Coil Winding / Insulation & Electrical Manufacturing Exhibition

26 th – 28 th June, 2012 – Messe Berlin, Berlin, Germany



730+ participating companies from 44 Countries in over 530+ different stands.



Largest Coil, Electric Motor, Transformer Manufacturing Show in the World



See it all at one place – Save your Time and see it all in one place



Register at:   www.coilwindingexpo.com







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