DOUG:

At no time I have tried to "denigrate" your observations at all
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bergey Grid-tie setup has NOT used a dump load because the mill is disconnected
from the inverter when the generated voltage is getting higher than the inverter
can handle and the passive pitch it has limits the RPM of it.

Reject Overvoltage is for some a case that should be "repaired" and in the past
this has been discussed extensively -- Do you recall Mel Tyree and his
experiments with the Bergey he has !!!.

"Repaired' because every time the mill overvoltage the inverter is disconnected
and there is a time ( variable) where the Inverter is NOT connected to the Grid
and Professor Tyree wanted to have 100 % Grid connection when the mill had the
capability of producing power and not to be disconnected from the Grid and I
presented several solutions , one to have a dump load variable ballast to
control or clamp the generated mill voltage within the capabilities of the Grid
tied inverter or another superior solution which is to fold the generated
voltage to the lower voltage limits of the inverter to keep the inverter tied to
the Grid even when the wind mill was producing a voltage much higher than the
capabilities or the limitations of the Grid tied inverter.

So there is NO denigration but explanations of possible solutions to have
additional or normal operation long term like in this case to insure to have 100
% Grid connection to produce 100 % revenues if the payments are in place .

You have a system that works for you and it seems that You do not have any
objections as it is but for some the Bergey may have limitations that may need
improvement from other owners, see Professor Mel Tyree.

Your system may be "perfect" from your point of view but from other owners that
point of view may indicate that is not desired by other owners of the same wind
mill type systems . see Professor Mel Tyree.

What I have tried is to show how a Grid Tied Inverter should be to have a 100 %
Grid connection  even when the wind mill is producing overvoltages conditions
that may affect the Grid tied inverter or inverter and for the same token you
may remember that I indicated that the Bergey battery charger can produce a much
higher power harvesting capabilities if there is a change or modification of the
charge controller, where I indicated that the charge controller is not properly
"married " to the wind mill to optimize the generated power of such wind mill.

One needs to examine "carefully" the characteristics of the wind mill and the
charge controller or inverter tied to it to properly marry in a happy "
matrimony" for a long happy " marriage".

You say: > A helpful reply would be to identify such an inverter that can be
purchased today.
Xantex?

Why do I need to do your job ?.

   -- have you studied long enough to be able to identify the necessary
parameters and functions and protection capabilities of the unit to be
acceptable to your needs ?.   -- specially when you "attack", periodically "ALL
ENGINEERS " .

Nando
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Doug Selsam
   To: Nando
   Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:15
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines?


   Hey Nando:
   I'm not sure what your point is at this point.  Seems like you're still trying
to find some way to denigrate my observations that:
   1) The Bergey grid-tie setup has not used a dump load in all the years I have
been involved in wind energy - it is a furling turbine, and every inverter they
have used have rejected overvoltage.
   2) Both the Bergey (Xantrex) inverter and the DTI inverter powering this house
take 3-phase input and reject overvoltage.
   3) They all work flawlessly, or at least acceptably, with no turbine damage
under any conditions
   4) Bergey is the main name in reliable small wind systems - the only name you
can really count on that I am aware of - widely recognized by authorities and
researchers as "the standard".

   Yet you keep acting like this is just some hypothetical whacked-out wishful
idea I came up with (impossible wish list).  I really don't understand your
point.  At this point.  :)

   I think you can stop screaming, squirming, and protesting.
   I am merely reporting my observations that:
   1) I have a great inverter made for a wind turbine here, (powering this
message) and it works perfectly well with no dump load and no problems at any
wind apeed;
   2) The company is going out of business
   3) I think we (small wind people) NEED a grid-tie inverter made for wind
turbines
   4) Because I HAVE ONE, I know they work and the concept is valid
   5) this does not represent any fantasy wish-list
   6) This represents an observation that after decades of clean and green hype,
I do not know of even a single grid-tie inverter, available today, that is ready
to handle a wind turbine as input.

   A helpful reply would be to identify such an inverter that can be purchased
today.
   Xantex?

   Meanwhile, the lack of even a single inverter made for a wind turbine, and the
lack of anyone even talking about this fact, (NREL, SWCC, etc.) just goes to
show this field takes place in an intellectual vacuum.



   On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

     Doug:

     You say : > The overvoltage aspect seems to be more challenging than mere
rectification.

     The problem is simple in principle and expensive often in the design cost. 
The voltage management depends on the type of high voltage semiconductors and
electronic components to handle the high voltage and then the voltage conversion
to levels that use lower cost power semiconductors -- it is a principle of
economics .

     Though there are inverters designed to work with high voltage .

     It seems that you want just a black box to attach to a wind mill and the box
to handle all the parameters or specifications in your wish list and to get an
output as well -- you can get those black boxes but you need to pay for them and
often to contract to have them the way you like them.

     A basic typical wind turbine building block may require to have different
input parameters or specifications depending on the wind mill power harvesting
capabilities.

     The design topology of such inverters vary a lot depending on many variables
required to cover when diverse wind mills may be connected to such inverter ,
like inverters with MPPT that are designed for specific wind mills -- forcing
the designed to have wind mill tables to be able to optimize the inverter
harvesting capabilities because the designer used a topology that FORCED the
designer to have wind mill tables instead of using a topology with capabilities
to recognize the wind mill harvesting behavior and adapt to such behavior
without the need of such problematic table generation .

     Charge controllers and/or inverters can be designed and have the capability
of operating without any additional labor to marry to Solar panels or Wind mills
or small Hydro or fuel cells and the unit topology recognizing the type of input
power supplied to the unit .

     But you need to pay for it, it is like wanting a 50 cent/watt solar panel
Home delivered included in the price,often not realistic !!

     Nando

       ----- Original Message -----
       From: Doug
       To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
       Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 09:04
       Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines?



       Hi Carl:
       Good info - nice to see 3 input terminals. Still, I'm more concerned with
how the inverter handles overvoltage than whether it can take 3-phase input per
se.

       A rectifier is a pretty simple add-on, so if an inverter can take a DC
input, and still handle overvoltage on its own, that would be better than
nothing. The overvoltage aspect seems to be more challenging than mere
rectification.

       An inverter actually made for a typical wind turbine would appear to be a
basic building block of any serious small wind industry or program.
       Doug S.

       --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Emerson" <carl@...> wrote:
       > Doug,
       > The discontinued MWI inverter bought out by PowerOne accepted 400V wild
AC.. These were fine for a prop pitch or furling machine. They had a multi point
MPPT table that could be programmed to suit the unit. PowerOne did not see a
market for the unit. They concentraced on the Aurora
       > Range. > Cheers,
       > Carl Emerson.
       >
       > Hi Laurie:
       > All I can report is three examples:
       > My SuperTwin, now that we have finally gotten the furling geometry
right;
       > Single-rotor versions of that same turbine;
       > The Bergey machines that dot the landscape around here and power this
place.
       > All three are furling turbines that are allowed to run unloaded
sometimes.
       > I've stood right under a SuperTwin running unloaded, on a 40-foot tower,
in
       > about a 50 mph wind, and was surprised that it was not even loud, and
did
       > not seem dangerous.
       > I used to assume that an unloaded turbine in a strong wind would be a
       > disaster, but the furling makes it OK.
       > I'm sure pitch control would also make it OK.
       > Doug S.
       >
       > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
       > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com> , Laurie Forbes <laf@> wrote:
       > >
       > > OK, but I have read (here?) that running a furling turbine unloaded
was
       > > a "no-no" as it will (might?) over-speed in strong winds. I have had
no
       > > personal experience as my turbine has passive pitch (it runs a little
       > > faster unloaded but not enough to cause concern).
       > >
       > > Laurie Forbes
       > >
       > > On 17/07/2012 8:29 AM, Doug wrote:
       > > >
       > > > Hi Laurie:
       > > > The inverter refuses input (disconnects from the turbine) if the
       > > > turbine voltage gets too high.
       > > > Then it keeps testing and if the turbine voltage returns to the
normal
       > > > range, it goes through a sequence that allows it to reconnect to the
       > > > grid after a fashion. It lets the turbine spin free (runs unloaded),
       > > > which is OK for a turbine that furls, or, as Nando points out, has a
       > > > pitching hub. Sounds a little edgy, but it works.
       > > > Doug S.
       > > >
       > >
       > >
       > >
       > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
       > >
       >
       >
       >
       >
       >
       > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
       >







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At first I was going to delete this,but I had to say something.
Everyday in the USA renewable energy companies folding up,in debt ,heading to
bankruptcy.From my observation deck its due to bad MARKETING PLAN,their plan is
for USA and some part of Europe,no attention is paid to AFRICA where 90% don't
have electiricty and the most power they have per day is less than 4hrs, an open
market for renewable energy,lots of wind and sun.
If some of of these companies can refocus their marketing plans and really look
at Africa its a pot of GOLD.
By the way they can afford it, if business  in Africa are spending over 60% of
their gross income on diesel fuel they sure can afford something better.

From: Nando <nando37@...>
To: SWH <small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:20 AM
Subject: [s-w-h] WHY SOLAR PANELS ARE 50 CENTS/WATT


 
source : FORBES Chinese Solar Manufacturers Face Blowback As Trade War
Escalates

Chinese Solar Manufacturers Face Blowback As Trade War Escalates

China's headlong rush into solar-energy equipment for export to the West has
stirred global trade tensions. In May the U.S. Commerce Department said it
would subject Chinese exporters to anti-dumping tariffs of up to 250% on
solar panels. Last week, in an apparent retort, China said it was
investigating U.S. and South Korean suppliers of polysilicon, a key
ingredient in solar cells. China had sharply criticised the U.S. ruling as a
protectionist measure. While the full effect of the U.S. tariffs won't be
felt until 2013, China's solar industry is already in trouble. Oversupply of
solar equipment and polysilicon in China means that companies are desperate
for sales. Europe's financial woes are already throttling government
subsidies for installation of solar panels. China exports nearly $2 billion
of solar panels annually to the U.S., and while not all companies will be
hit by huge tariffs, it's hard to see much upside. U.S.-listed Chinese solar
firms have had a terrible year. Shares in Suntech Power (STP) are down 79%.
JA Solar Holdings (JASO) is trading below 1$, down 30%.

Bad timing, then, for Hi-Min Solar Power, a solar water-heater company that
grew on the back of close political ties in its home province of Shandong.
After a third attempt to list shares in Shanghai was rejected, founder Huang
Ming lashed out at the news media for linking him to a disgraced politician
in the province.
He is particularly incensed at reports that former vice-governor Huang Sheng
is a relative who helped him obtain cheap land in Dezhou for his solar
factories and real-estate projects.
Not so, claims Hi-Min's chairman, though he admits that Huang Sheng was his
friend and "benefactor".
The disgraced Huang was expelled last month from the ruling party for
accepting bribes and being "morally corrupt".
The suspicion is that Hi-Min's application for an IPO was denied because of
its association with him.
During a stormy press conference on July 20, Chairman Huang Ming claimed
that the reason was that Hi-Min had non-performing assets.
The company has tried for years to go public, all to no avail.

Chinese media reports that the corruption probe that brought down the
vice-governor involved land transactions to clean energy companies in
Dezhou. No wonder Huang Ming is feeling the heat.

LDK Gets To $2.30 With Lifeline From Its Home City
Who's Winning The Solar Trade War? Todd Woody Forbes Staff

Report: Solar Panel Supply Will Far Exceed Demand Beyond 2012 Ucilia Wang
Contributor

In southern Jiangxi province, solar power is also proving a headache for
local authorities. Indebted LDK Solar, the world's second-largest solar
wafer manufacturer, has seen its ADRs drop 15% after losing $185m in the
first quarter. One major drag is that its cost of producing polysilicon is
well below the spot price. Now it's turned to city authorities and Chinese
bank creditors for help. Caixin reports that LDK owes over RMB30 billion
($4.75 billion) to domestic banks and the city of Xinyu has had to provide
emergency funding while it tries to restructure, possibly by selling a stake
to a state company, though that could be a stretch, according to Caixin.

The Jiangxi government has allotted 2 billion yuan to banks to roll over
loans and required bank branches not to demand for payback for now. Bank
sources said the measure can't last long.

"The most feasible solution is an equity swap," a source in the solar
industry said. "It is possibly that state-owned firms that have already
entered the solar business, such as China National Materials Group Corp. or
China Energy Conservation and Environmental Protection Group, could buy LDK's
stake."

Earlier media reports said state-owned companies were in talks with LDK
Solar. But the nationalization of the company could be difficult given the
sluggish solar industry and the company's huge debt. Jiangxi Copper Corp.,
one of the province's largest SOEs, rejected an offer from the Xinyu
government to buy into LDK.
So much for China's claim that it doesn't subsidise its solar-energy
companies. Yet there are plenty of hidden subsidies found elsewhere,
including government support to the solar market in the name of clean
energy. LDK is likely to keep pumping out its panels, even at a loss, given
its 28,000 workforce and China's slowing economy. Of course, falling prices
for solar inputs and equipment are good for consumers who want to switch to
solar, as well as utilities that want to up their renewable energy share.
U.S. installation of solar panels is likely to double this year, helped by -
what else? - government subsidies.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

FWIW, my sister is visiting, she was telling about seeing a big wind
machine museum at, I think, Kendallville, Indiana.

Just wondering if anyone has seen it or knows of it  ??

wombat

Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
Any developed art has building blocks that can be combined into a system. 
Usually each building block is self-sufficient, and capable of handling its own
basic function, so one can then combine components.
Not so in small wind.

From the very beginning, I noticed that research grants and certifying agencies
wanted to see "complete systems", including all electronics, the tower, all
shut-off switches, cables, every single detail of a complete system, specified
by the turbine developer or researcher.

I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a more powerful turbine, no agency is
capable of simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?  I imagined agencies
like NREL having a bunch of towers with wiring and inverters, and if you had an
interesting turbine they'd just call you up and say: "Hey can you bring one of
those here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".

But no, they could only test "a complete system".  It seemed like there was
"something wrong with this picture", like having to design a complete house just
to test an air conditioner.

The thing that really struck me was the number of parties capable, or willing,
to develop one building-block, say a turbine that was capable of protecting
itself, was much higher than the number of parties capable of developing an
entire system.

For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning about airfoils, propellers and
bearings, power and swept area, spinning and twirling, pirouetting and furling,
horsepower and watts, RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine designer has to
know.

But I found that nobody could or would test just a turbine.  They only wanted to
test a complete system including tower and all cabling and electronics including
the inverter.

Lets assume someone had developed a 100% foolproof turbine that was quiet, could
never burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.  Nobody would have been willing
to test it, certify it, none of that.  Nope.  You had to have "a complete
system".

At first it seemed like some hard news, but perhaps reasonable.  But the real
problem slowly dawned on me:  No inverter was capable of simply protecting
itself.  No inverter was "turbine-ready".  A self-sufficient inverter for a wind
turbine simply did not exist.  None of the inverter companies seemed to care or
"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on boxes with dump loads etc. were
expensive workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box and a wall full of
electronics to allow you to screw in a light bulb.  Ridiculous.

For years now I've been dabbling in the field of electronics, to try and create
more affordable band-aids than the inverter companies were offering, but that
takes us back to the basic affordability and complexity of a system.

To me, by the time every new aspect or consideration means another $1000 add-on,
few customers would be interested in a financially top-heavy Rube Goldberg
agglomeration of failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot every time the
wind is strong.

Additionally, asking anyone developing a turbine to out-think hundreds of
trained electrical engineers just to get a turbine tested is not realistic.  No,
the answer is for each component to take care of itself, then they can be
combined.  If a turbine can protect itself under any conditions, and an inverter
can protect itself under any conditions, then you can combine them and have a
system that will protect itself under any conditions.

Instead, we ask people developing turbines to make up for the failure of the
inverter designers.  We tell the turbine developers: You must supersede
highly-talented electronic and electrical engineers because they simply cannot
be expected to do their job - YOU must do their job, or you are just not good
enough, your turbine is just not good enough, and the green energy movement will
stop here.  Stuck in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying tickets to the
next trade-show to notice.

Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"

Hey here's a clue:
If we had inverters that could handle themselves, anyone could develop a turbine
and connect it, and maybe this art would not be still stuck in the same exact
place it was 10 years ago.

:)
Doug Selsam




--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "boB G" <bob@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Doug is right on here, however, there are add-ons for some of these inverters
to do what his Windy Girl does.
>
> Some call it a clamp, some call it a limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the
voltage like audio signals get clipped)
>
> Did you know that SMA actually makes a voltage limiter for their Windy Boy  ??
I can't remember exactly what they call it but am surprised that I don't here it
talked about more.
>
> I think that  Power One makes a voltage limiter for the Aurora grid tie
inverter.
>
> Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that consists of a long series of diodes
that was made for their E110 (?) that was being used with Outback MX60s for a
while.
>
> As far as I have found, a controllable limiter is best, since it can reduce
RPMs when the grid goes away or the batteries are full or the controller or
inverter is at its maximum rated output power.
>
> AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a built in Clipper but it makes sense
that this would be an external add on with the rectifiers built in as well.
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
> >
> > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.  I've sold a few
of these, and own a couple more. We can program a SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.  The
unit is ruined if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.  And WindyBOY takes
DC input whereas a wind turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.  I think I'm just
repeating myself here, implying people are replying without reading my original
post.
> >
> > Thanks for again making my point, that there is no grid-tie inverter
available that you can plug a wind turbine into and have it just work.
> > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example of a grid-tie inverter that you can
just plug a turbine into and have it work. (nice try though...)
> >
> > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL - electronics that will protect your
WindyBOY inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out your turbine by braking
it.  I will keep working on it.
> >
> > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I don't think either is a guarantee you
won't seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to ruin the inverter.  I
wouldn't I'd bet your inverter on the idea that no gust combined with a changing
wind direction (dust devil?) could ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
moment.
> >
> > All it takes is a second of high voltage to smoke the input capacitors, as
they have a very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and ---zap--- - you are
sending out your entire inverter for repairs.  Just the shipping back and forth
will empty your wallet, let alone the repair cost.
> >
> > And Geoff, why you woould forward a mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor
selling battery-charging inverters that use a dump load, in response to the
topic of a grid-tie inverter with NO dump load I am not quite understanding.
> >
> > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
> > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine that can take a Turbine as Input"
> >
> > If you want to refute my post, saying that such is not currently available,
please give an example and explain how it takes 3-phase input and is not damaged
by overvoltage.  In other words, please stick to the topic and do not diverge
into slightly-related peripheral topics.
> >
> > If this simple idea is too complicated for anyone to even understand what I
am talking about, that may explain why none are available.
> >
> > :)
> > Doug S.
> >
> > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I guess no one has tried an SMA “WindyBoy” ?
> > >
> > > From: Doug
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
> > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
> > >
> > >
> > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of green green green, and tried to
participate. Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air pollution - I've heard
all the reasons...
> > >
> > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google, BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to
the pronouncements of (future) progress...
> > >
> > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
> > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and happy-talk, the most advanced
country on Earth, has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a windmill
into and have it work.
> > > Yup that sounds about right.
> > >
> > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
> > > I guess, just like we'll never see another man on the moon, we'll never
have a grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all those green agencies are BUSY!
Busy planning the next conference that will take a few more million gallons of
oil to get everyone there.
> > >
> > > What, you say you have a windmill and want to plug it into the grid? Oh
that's nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Doug,

Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
because you do.  But if we take another industry and compare it to
wind, can it provide valuable clues?  Take the automotive industry.
They have been building cars 100 years.  You would think they have
it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
are easy to piece together and easy to fix.  Alas, the manufacturers
do not standardize much, if at all!  Are there standard size alternators

withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?  Can you
take your pick of X number of standard bearings?  For some reason, things
that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a standard
configuration.  Imagine how nice it would be to go to the auto parts store,
and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
you need!  Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is

perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question

as to why this doesn't happen?  Standardization comes at a cost.
What is that cost?  Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than

manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
bullet proof for all turbines.  It's that cost savings, likely, that prevents
standardization.  Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.

Mike



________________________________
  From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks

Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
Any developed art has building blocks that can be combined into a system. 
Usually each building block is self-sufficient, and capable of handling its own
basic function, so one can then combine components.
Not so in small wind.

From the very beginning, I noticed that research grants and certifying agencies
wanted to see "complete systems", including all electronics, the tower, all
shut-off switches, cables, every single detail of a complete system, specified
by the turbine developer or researcher.

I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a more powerful turbine, no agency is
capable of simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?  I imagined agencies
like NREL having a bunch of towers with wiring and inverters, and if you had an
interesting turbine they'd just call you up and say: "Hey can you bring one of
those here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".

But no, they could only test "a complete system".  It seemed like there was
"something wrong with this picture", like having to design a complete house just
to test an air conditioner.

The thing that really struck me was the number of parties capable, or willing,
to develop one building-block, say a turbine that was capable of protecting
itself, was much higher than the number of parties capable of developing an
entire system.

For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning about airfoils, propellers and
bearings, power and swept area, spinning and twirling, pirouetting and furling,
horsepower and watts, RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine designer has to
know.

But I found that nobody could or would test just a turbine.  They only wanted
to test a complete system including tower and all cabling and electronics
including the inverter.

Lets assume someone had developed a 100% foolproof turbine that was quiet, could
never burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.  Nobody would have been willing
to test it, certify it, none of that.  Nope.  You had to have "a complete
system".

At first it seemed like some hard news, but perhaps reasonable.  But the real
problem slowly dawned on me:  No inverter was capable of simply protecting
itself.  No inverter was "turbine-ready".  A self-sufficient inverter for a
wind turbine simply did not exist.  None of the inverter companies seemed to
care or "get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on boxes with dump loads etc.
were expensive workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box and a wall full of
electronics to allow you to screw in a light bulb.  Ridiculous.

For years now I've been dabbling in the field of electronics, to try and create
more affordable band-aids than the inverter companies were offering, but that
takes us back to the basic affordability and complexity of a system. 

To me, by the time every new aspect or consideration means another $1000 add-on,
few customers would be interested in a financially top-heavy Rube Goldberg
agglomeration of failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot every time the
wind is strong.

Additionally, asking anyone developing a turbine to out-think hundreds of
trained electrical engineers just to get a turbine tested is not realistic. 
No, the answer is for each component to take care of itself, then they can be
combined.  If a turbine can protect itself under any conditions, and an
inverter can protect itself under any conditions, then you can combine them and
have a system that will protect itself under any conditions.

Instead, we ask people developing turbines to make up for the failure of the
inverter designers.  We tell the turbine developers: You must supersede
highly-talented electronic and electrical engineers because they simply cannot
be expected to do their job - YOU must do their job, or you are just not good
enough, your turbine is just not good enough, and the green energy movement will
stop here.  Stuck in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying tickets to the
next trade-show to notice.

Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"

Hey here's a clue:
If we had inverters that could handle themselves, anyone could develop a turbine
and connect it, and maybe this art would not be still stuck in the same exact
place it was 10 years ago.

:)
Doug Selsam




--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "boB G" <bob@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Doug is right on here, however, there are add-ons for some of these inverters
to do what his Windy Girl does.
>
> Some call it a clamp, some call it a limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the
voltage like audio signals get clipped)
>
> Did you know that SMA actually makes a voltage limiter for their Windy Boy 
??  I can't remember exactly what they call it but am surprised that I don't
here it talked about more.
>
> I think that  Power One makes a voltage limiter for the Aurora grid tie
inverter.
>
> Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that consists of a long series of diodes
that was made for their E110 (?) that was being used with Outback MX60s for a
while.
>
> As far as I have found, a controllable limiter is best, since it can reduce
RPMs when the grid goes away or the batteries are full or the controller or
inverter is at its maximum rated output power.
>
> AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a built in Clipper but it makes sense
that this would be an external add on with the rectifiers built in as well.
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
> >
> > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.  I've sold a
few of these, and own a couple more. We can program a SunnyBOY into a
WindyBOY.  The unit is ruined if you briefly hit it with too much voltage. 
And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.  I
think I'm just repeating myself here, implying people are replying without
reading my original post.
> >
> > Thanks for again making my point, that there is no grid-tie inverter
available that you can plug a wind turbine into and have it just work.
> > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example of a grid-tie inverter that you can
just plug a turbine into and have it work. (nice try though...)
> >
> > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL - electronics that will protect your
WindyBOY inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out your turbine by braking
it.  I will keep working on it.
> >
> > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I don't think either is a guarantee you
won't seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to ruin the inverter.  I
wouldn't I'd bet your inverter on the idea that no gust combined with a changing
wind direction (dust devil?) could ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
moment.
> >
> > All it takes is a second of high voltage to smoke the input capacitors, as
they have a very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and ---zap--- - you are
sending out your entire inverter for repairs.  Just the shipping back and forth
will empty your wallet, let alone the repair cost.
> >
> > And Geoff, why you woould forward a mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor
selling battery-charging inverters that use a dump load, in response to the
topic of a grid-tie inverter with NO dump load I am not quite understanding.
> >
> > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
> > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine that can take a Turbine as Input"
> >
> > If you want to refute my post, saying that such is not currently available,
please give an example and explain how it takes 3-phase input and is not damaged
by overvoltage.  In other words, please stick to the topic and do not diverge
into slightly-related peripheral topics.
> >
> > If this simple idea is too complicated for anyone to even understand what I
am talking about, that may explain why none are available.
> >
> > :)
> > Doug S.
> >
> > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I guess no one has tried an SMA “WindyBoy” ?
> > >
> > > From: Doug
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
> > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
> > >
> > > 
> > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of green green green, and tried to
participate. Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air pollution - I've heard
all the reasons...
> > >
> > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google, BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to
the pronouncements of (future) progress...
> > >
> > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
> > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and happy-talk, the most advanced
country on Earth, has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a windmill
into and have it work.
> > > Yup that sounds about right.
> > >
> > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
> > > I guess, just like we'll never see another man on the moon, we'll never
have a grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all those green agencies are BUSY!
Busy planning the next conference that will take a few more million gallons of
oil to get everyone there.
> > >
> > > What, you say you have a windmill and want to plug it into the grid? Oh
that's nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>




------------------------------------

==========================================================
THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
----------------------------------------------------------
. Please feel free to send your input to:
  small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
  small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
. To view previous messages from the list,
  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
  (and read it on the Web), go to
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. An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

----------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes ! Valid points BUT the design is done with "many shortcuts" limited to cover
the "basic" needs and nothing else, so if one wants a unit capable of universal
capabilities -- the shortcuts have to be eliminated and the total need of
parameters are needed to be implemented at a cost that few may not like to pay
for.

Most do not like to pay for them , though they demand them implemented at no
cost !!.

Nando


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Michael Klemen
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 10:23
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks



   Doug,

   Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
   because you do.  But if we take another industry and compare it to
   wind, can it provide valuable clues?  Take the automotive industry.
   They have been building cars 100 years.  You would think they have
   it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
   are easy to piece together and easy to fix.  Alas, the manufacturers
   do not standardize much, if at all!  Are there standard size alternators

   withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
   auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?  Can you
   take your pick of X number of standard bearings?  For some reason, things
   that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a standard
   configuration.  Imagine how nice it would be to go to the auto parts store,
   and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
   you need!  Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
   this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is

   perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question

   as to why this doesn't happen?  Standardization comes at a cost.
   What is that cost?  Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than

   manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
   shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
   bullet proof for all turbines.  It's that cost savings, likely, that prevents
   standardization.  Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.

   Mike

   ________________________________
   From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
   Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks

   Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
   Any developed art has building blocks that can be combined into a system. 
Usually each building block is self-sufficient, and capable of handling its own
basic function, so one can then combine components.
   Not so in small wind.

   From the very beginning, I noticed that research grants and certifying
agencies wanted to see "complete systems", including all electronics, the tower,
all shut-off switches, cables, every single detail of a complete system,
specified by the turbine developer or researcher.

   I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a more powerful turbine, no agency is
capable of simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?  I imagined agencies
like NREL having a bunch of towers with wiring and inverters, and if you had an
interesting turbine they'd just call you up and say: "Hey can you bring one of
those here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".

   But no, they could only test "a complete system".  It seemed like there was
"something wrong with this picture", like having to design a complete house just
to test an air conditioner.

   The thing that really struck me was the number of parties capable, or willing,
to develop one building-block, say a turbine that was capable of protecting
itself, was much higher than the number of parties capable of developing an
entire system.

   For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning about airfoils, propellers and
bearings, power and swept area, spinning and twirling, pirouetting and furling,
horsepower and watts, RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine designer has to
know.

   But I found that nobody could or would test just a turbine.  They only wanted
to test a complete system including tower and all cabling and electronics
including the inverter.

   Lets assume someone had developed a 100% foolproof turbine that was quiet,
could never burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.  Nobody would have been
willing to test it, certify it, none of that.  Nope.  You had to have "a
complete system".

   At first it seemed like some hard news, but perhaps reasonable.  But the real
problem slowly dawned on me:  No inverter was capable of simply protecting
itself.  No inverter was "turbine-ready".  A self-sufficient inverter for a wind
turbine simply did not exist.  None of the inverter companies seemed to care or
"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on boxes with dump loads etc. were
expensive workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box and a wall full of
electronics to allow you to screw in a light bulb.  Ridiculous.

   For years now I've been dabbling in the field of electronics, to try and
create more affordable band-aids than the inverter companies were offering, but
that takes us back to the basic affordability and complexity of a system.

   To me, by the time every new aspect or consideration means another $1000
add-on, few customers would be interested in a financially top-heavy Rube
Goldberg agglomeration of failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot every
time the wind is strong.

   Additionally, asking anyone developing a turbine to out-think hundreds of
trained electrical engineers just to get a turbine tested is not realistic.  No,
the answer is for each component to take care of itself, then they can be
combined.  If a turbine can protect itself under any conditions, and an inverter
can protect itself under any conditions, then you can combine them and have a
system that will protect itself under any conditions.

   Instead, we ask people developing turbines to make up for the failure of the
inverter designers.  We tell the turbine developers: You must supersede
highly-talented electronic and electrical engineers because they simply cannot
be expected to do their job - YOU must do their job, or you are just not good
enough, your turbine is just not good enough, and the green energy movement will
stop here.  Stuck in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying tickets to the
next trade-show to notice.

   Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"

   Hey here's a clue:
   If we had inverters that could handle themselves, anyone could develop a
turbine and connect it, and maybe this art would not be still stuck in the same
exact place it was 10 years ago.

   :)
   Doug Selsam

   --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "boB G" <bob@...> wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > Doug is right on here, however, there are add-ons for some of these
inverters to do what his Windy Girl does.
   >
   > Some call it a clamp, some call it a limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the
voltage like audio signals get clipped)
   >
   > Did you know that SMA actually makes a voltage limiter for their Windy Boy 
??  I can't remember exactly what they call it but am surprised that I don't
here it talked about more.
   >
   > I think that  Power One makes a voltage limiter for the Aurora grid tie
inverter.
   >
   > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that consists of a long series of
diodes that was made for their E110 (?) that was being used with Outback MX60s
for a while.
   >
   > As far as I have found, a controllable limiter is best, since it can reduce
RPMs when the grid goes away or the batteries are full or the controller or
inverter is at its maximum rated output power.
   >
   > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a built in Clipper but it makes
sense that this would be an external add on with the rectifiers built in as
well.
   >
   > boB
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
   > >
   > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.  I've sold a
few of these, and own a couple more. We can program a SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY. 
The unit is ruined if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.  And WindyBOY
takes DC input whereas a wind turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.  I think I'm just
repeating myself here, implying people are replying without reading my original
post.
   > >
   > > Thanks for again making my point, that there is no grid-tie inverter
available that you can plug a wind turbine into and have it just work.
   > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example of a grid-tie inverter that you
can just plug a turbine into and have it work. (nice try though...)
   > >
   > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL - electronics that will protect your
WindyBOY inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out your turbine by braking
it.  I will keep working on it.
   > >
   > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I don't think either is a guarantee
you won't seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to ruin the inverter.  I
wouldn't I'd bet your inverter on the idea that no gust combined with a changing
wind direction (dust devil?) could ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
moment.
   > >
   > > All it takes is a second of high voltage to smoke the input capacitors, as
they have a very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and ---zap--- - you are
sending out your entire inverter for repairs.  Just the shipping back and forth
will empty your wallet, let alone the repair cost.
   > >
   > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor
selling battery-charging inverters that use a dump load, in response to the
topic of a grid-tie inverter with NO dump load I am not quite understanding.
   > >
   > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
   > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine that can take a Turbine as Input"
   > >
   > > If you want to refute my post, saying that such is not currently
available, please give an example and explain how it takes 3-phase input and is
not damaged by overvoltage.  In other words, please stick to the topic and do
not diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
   > >
   > > If this simple idea is too complicated for anyone to even understand what
I am talking about, that may explain why none are available.
   > >
   > > :)
   > > Doug S.
   > >
   > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
   > > >
   > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA “WindyBoy” ?
   > > >
   > > > From: Doug
   > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
   > > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of green green green, and tried to
participate. Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air pollution - I've heard
all the reasons...
   > > >
   > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google, BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to
the pronouncements of (future) progress...
   > > >
   > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
   > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and happy-talk, the most advanced
country on Earth, has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a windmill
into and have it work.
   > > > Yup that sounds about right.
   > > >
   > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
   > > > I guess, just like we'll never see another man on the moon, we'll never
have a grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all those green agencies are BUSY!
Busy planning the next conference that will take a few more million gallons of
oil to get everyone there.
   > > >
   > > > What, you say you have a windmill and want to plug it into the grid? Oh
that's nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > > >
   > >
   >

   ------------------------------------

   ==========================================================
   THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   . Please feel free to send your input to:
     small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
     small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   . To view previous messages from the list,
     subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
     or stop receiving the list by e-mail
     (and read it on the Web), go to
     http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
   . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
     http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

   ----------------------------------------------------------
   Yahoo! Groups Links

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike:
I didn't even mention standardization.  That's not what I meant by "building
blocks".  Lest my point be lost, I said I think if each component can protect
itself under all conditions, then they can be combined into a system that
protects itself under all conditions.

I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine designer is asked to protect
the inverter because the inverters have no protection from the most common
problem a turbine is likely to throw at them, either before being loaded down
during initialization, or during a storm, especially if the grid goes down.

The reason is because inverters were designed for solar, as illustrated by the
fact that they cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the average turbine.

Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask the turbine manufacturer to
handle.  Their inverters are simply not true wind turbine inverters.  Nobody
makes a true wind turbine inverter.  That is a huge problem.  I used to think it
was just a huge problem for me, but I see it is really a huge problem for the
entire industry and a main reason why this industry is stuck in neutral, or
maybe first gear.

Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb to provide protection for the
house wiring.  The house wiring can protect itself.  If any appliance has a
short circuit, you don't have to send your house back to the manufacturer for
rewiring, because someone thought it through, and decided the house had to
protect itself.  They included circuit-breakers or fuses to properly protect the
house wiring.

The operative word is not "standardization" of components, in the sense of
swapping parts between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in the sense that
the bozo specifying capacitors that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
error, should then realize that he needs to include a way to protect that
component from that condition.

It's nice to tell the turbine designer to include a rectifier because your
inverter is made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage protection, because
the sun never gets twice as bright, but the explanation why is always the same:
The inverter was designed for solar and they just don't care about wind enough
to do anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid "wind turbine interface
box" and a "dump load" that doubles your cost, takes twice the space, and turns
red-hot when it gets windy.

So the turbine person is on their own, trying to do the job of the inverter
designer.

The standardization of car parts fitting other cars is there to a large extent
anyway - you can put the same fender or Delco alternator on either your Camaro,
or your Firebird, but electrical parts can fit together between brands even more
easily, because of standardized wire sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
intermediary is electricity, which is generic and brand-neutral.

Thanks for writing.
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com


--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Michael Klemen <wind4energy@...> wrote:
>
> Doug,
>
> Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
> because you do.  But if we take another industry and compare it to
> wind, can it provide valuable clues?  Take the automotive industry.
> They have been building cars 100 years.  You would think they have
> it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
> are easy to piece together and easy to fix.  Alas, the manufacturers
> do not standardize much, if at all!  Are there standard size alternators
>
> withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
> auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?  Can you
> take your pick of X number of standard bearings?  For some reason, things
> that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a standard
> configuration.  Imagine how nice it would be to go to the auto parts store,
> and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
> you need!  Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
> this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
>
> perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
>
> as to why this doesn't happen?  Standardization comes at a cost.
> What is that cost?  Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
>
> manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
> shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
> bullet proof for all turbines.  It's that cost savings, likely, that prevents
> standardization.  Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
> To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
> Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks
>
> Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
> Any developed art has building blocks that can be combined into a system. 
Usually each building block is self-sufficient, and capable of handling its own
basic function, so one can then combine components.
> Not so in small wind.
>
> From the very beginning, I noticed that research grants and certifying
agencies wanted to see "complete systems", including all electronics, the tower,
all shut-off switches, cables, every single detail of a complete system,
specified by the turbine developer or researcher.
>
> I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a more powerful turbine, no agency is
capable of simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?  I imagined agencies
like NREL having a bunch of towers with wiring and inverters, and if you had an
interesting turbine they'd just call you up and say: "Hey can you bring one of
those here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
>
> But no, they could only test "a complete system".  It seemed like there was
"something wrong with this picture", like having to design a complete house just
to test an air conditioner.
>
> The thing that really struck me was the number of parties capable, or willing,
to develop one building-block, say a turbine that was capable of protecting
itself, was much higher than the number of parties capable of developing an
entire system.
>
> For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning about airfoils, propellers and
bearings, power and swept area, spinning and twirling, pirouetting and furling,
horsepower and watts, RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine designer has to
know.
>
> But I found that nobody could or would test just a turbine.  They only wanted
to test a complete system including tower and all cabling and electronics
including the inverter.
>
> Lets assume someone had developed a 100% foolproof turbine that was quiet,
could never burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.  Nobody would have been
willing to test it, certify it, none of that.  Nope.  You had to have "a
complete system".
>
> At first it seemed like some hard news, but perhaps reasonable.  But the real
problem slowly dawned on me:  No inverter was capable of simply protecting
itself.  No inverter was "turbine-ready".  A self-sufficient inverter for a
wind turbine simply did not exist.  None of the inverter companies seemed to
care or "get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on boxes with dump loads etc.
were expensive workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box and a wall full of
electronics to allow you to screw in a light bulb.  Ridiculous.
>
> For years now I've been dabbling in the field of electronics, to try and
create more affordable band-aids than the inverter companies were offering, but
that takes us back to the basic affordability and complexity of a system. 
>
> To me, by the time every new aspect or consideration means another $1000
add-on, few customers would be interested in a financially top-heavy Rube
Goldberg agglomeration of failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot every
time the wind is strong.
>
> Additionally, asking anyone developing a turbine to out-think hundreds of
trained electrical engineers just to get a turbine tested is not realistic. 
No, the answer is for each component to take care of itself, then they can be
combined.  If a turbine can protect itself under any conditions, and an
inverter can protect itself under any conditions, then you can combine them and
have a system that will protect itself under any conditions.
>
> Instead, we ask people developing turbines to make up for the failure of the
inverter designers.  We tell the turbine developers: You must supersede
highly-talented electronic and electrical engineers because they simply cannot
be expected to do their job - YOU must do their job, or you are just not good
enough, your turbine is just not good enough, and the green energy movement will
stop here.  Stuck in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying tickets to the
next trade-show to notice.
>
> Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
>
> Hey here's a clue:
> If we had inverters that could handle themselves, anyone could develop a
turbine and connect it, and maybe this art would not be still stuck in the same
exact place it was 10 years ago.
>
> :)
> Doug Selsam
>
>
>
>
> --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "boB G" <bob@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Doug is right on here, however, there are add-ons for some of these
inverters to do what his Windy Girl does.
> >
> > Some call it a clamp, some call it a limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the
voltage like audio signals get clipped)
> >
> > Did you know that SMA actually makes a voltage limiter for their Windy Boy 
??  I can't remember exactly what they call it but am surprised that I don't
here it talked about more.
> >
> > I think that  Power One makes a voltage limiter for the Aurora grid tie
inverter.
> >
> > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that consists of a long series of
diodes that was made for their E110 (?) that was being used with Outback MX60s
for a while.
> >
> > As far as I have found, a controllable limiter is best, since it can reduce
RPMs when the grid goes away or the batteries are full or the controller or
inverter is at its maximum rated output power.
> >
> > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a built in Clipper but it makes
sense that this would be an external add on with the rectifiers built in as
well.
> >
> > boB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
> > >
> > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.  I've sold a
few of these, and own a couple more. We can program a SunnyBOY into a
WindyBOY.  The unit is ruined if you briefly hit it with too much voltage. 
And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.  I
think I'm just repeating myself here, implying people are replying without
reading my original post.
> > >
> > > Thanks for again making my point, that there is no grid-tie inverter
available that you can plug a wind turbine into and have it just work.
> > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example of a grid-tie inverter that you
can just plug a turbine into and have it work. (nice try though...)
> > >
> > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL - electronics that will protect your
WindyBOY inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out your turbine by braking
it.  I will keep working on it.
> > >
> > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I don't think either is a guarantee
you won't seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to ruin the inverter.  I
wouldn't I'd bet your inverter on the idea that no gust combined with a changing
wind direction (dust devil?) could ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
moment.
> > >
> > > All it takes is a second of high voltage to smoke the input capacitors, as
they have a very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and ---zap--- - you are
sending out your entire inverter for repairs.  Just the shipping back and forth
will empty your wallet, let alone the repair cost.
> > >
> > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor
selling battery-charging inverters that use a dump load, in response to the
topic of a grid-tie inverter with NO dump load I am not quite understanding.
> > >
> > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
> > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine that can take a Turbine as Input"
> > >
> > > If you want to refute my post, saying that such is not currently
available, please give an example and explain how it takes 3-phase input and is
not damaged by overvoltage.  In other words, please stick to the topic and do
not diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
> > >
> > > If this simple idea is too complicated for anyone to even understand what
I am talking about, that may explain why none are available.
> > >
> > > :)
> > > Doug S.
> > >
> > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA “WindyBoy” ?
> > > >
> > > > From: Doug
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
> > > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of green green green, and tried to
participate. Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air pollution - I've heard
all the reasons...
> > > >
> > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google, BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to
the pronouncements of (future) progress...
> > > >
> > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
> > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and happy-talk, the most advanced
country on Earth, has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a windmill
into and have it work.
> > > > Yup that sounds about right.
> > > >
> > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
> > > > I guess, just like we'll never see another man on the moon, we'll never
have a grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all those green agencies are BUSY!
Busy planning the next conference that will take a few more million gallons of
oil to get everyone there.
> > > >
> > > > What, you say you have a windmill and want to plug it into the grid? Oh
that's nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ==========================================================
> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> . Please feel free to send your input to:
>   small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
>   small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> . To view previous messages from the list,
>   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
>   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
>   (and read it on the Web), go to
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> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
>   http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Doug, I don't agree it is the turbine manufacturers job to do anything except
make the turbine and Tower or provide data for tower to be made near the site.
I find it a huge problem that manufacturers insist on supplying their own
controllers and Inverters, as that severely limits the systems that can be
designed with such a turbine.
For example a New Zealand company makes a 500kW turbine, passive pitch of course
one of my requirements, but it had a controller, inverter, etc. that you had to
buy.
It wasn't a very economical lot of extras, so simply purchasing the whole
caboodle and binning their stuff was not economical.
My requirement at the time was a situation requiring 1 Megawatt, I had a 2 meg
Inverter that required 1100 volts DC, and converters to use almost any AC
voltage below that.
As they would not supply the two turbines without their gear, I could not go
ahead with that job, it was a big job and sorely missed.
I notice that that company is not doing well now, and wonder if their rigidity
is to blame.
Likewise Inverters, most of the Grid/connect-Stand/alone combination inverters
on the market are also Inverter chargers, which both adds unnecessary cost to an
already expensive machine, and usually also requires a large generator because
it can't charge and Invert at the same time so the Generator has to carry the
load whilst batteries are being charged by it.
If it is supplying the house from a grid, then even if the local grid is toxic,
the Inverter can't supply the house when charging but switch to grid supply.
I find it much more economical to have a small separate back-up charger, whether
from a genset or the grid, - or both, and rely on the wind to provide most of
the power to the batteries and the Inverter to always power the load.
Yes, it is a design philosophy, but very annoying that packages of components
are joined together based on the old Generator centric model and make it
difficult or impossible for other ways such as my Battery centric designs.
Currently I am finishing off a stand/alone installation which has Wind, Solar
and Hydro input, with a small back-up generator powered by wood gas, all into
the one battery bank, how many wind turbine manufacturers would be able to
supply such a system?
I believe that it is the job of the designer to make sure all the components
match each other and everything is protected, the wind turbine manufacturer
should focus on making good wind turbines.

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas.

On 30/07/2012, at 5:44 AM, Doug wrote:

> Mike:
> I didn't even mention standardization. That's not what I meant by "building
blocks". Lest my point be lost, I said I think if each component can protect
itself under all conditions, then they can be combined into a system that
protects itself under all conditions.
>
> I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
> I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine designer is asked to protect
the inverter because the inverters have no protection from the most common
problem a turbine is likely to throw at them, either before being loaded down
during initialization, or during a storm, especially if the grid goes down.
>
> The reason is because inverters were designed for solar, as illustrated by the
fact that they cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the average turbine.
>
> Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask the turbine manufacturer to
handle. Their inverters are simply not true wind turbine inverters. Nobody makes
a true wind turbine inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to think it was
just a huge problem for me, but I see it is really a huge problem for the entire
industry and a main reason why this industry is stuck in neutral, or maybe first
gear.
>
> Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb to provide protection for the
house wiring. The house wiring can protect itself. If any appliance has a short
circuit, you don't have to send your house back to the manufacturer for
rewiring, because someone thought it through, and decided the house had to
protect itself. They included circuit-breakers or fuses to properly protect the
house wiring.
>
> The operative word is not "standardization" of components, in the sense of
swapping parts between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in the sense that
the bozo specifying capacitors that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
error, should then realize that he needs to include a way to protect that
component from that condition.
>
> It's nice to tell the turbine designer to include a rectifier because your
inverter is made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage protection, because
the sun never gets twice as bright, but the explanation why is always the same:
The inverter was designed for solar and they just don't care about wind enough
to do anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid "wind turbine interface
box" and a "dump load" that doubles your cost, takes twice the space, and turns
red-hot when it gets windy.
>
> So the turbine person is on their own, trying to do the job of the inverter
designer.
>
> The standardization of car parts fitting other cars is there to a large extent
anyway - you can put the same fender or Delco alternator on either your Camaro,
or your Firebird, but electrical parts can fit together between brands even more
easily, because of standardized wire sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
intermediary is electricity, which is generic and brand-neutral.
>
> Thanks for writing.
> Doug Selsam
> http://www.selsam.com
>
> --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Michael Klemen <wind4energy@...>
wrote:
> >
> > Doug,
> >
> > Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
> > because you do.  But if we take another industry and compare it to
> > wind, can it provide valuable clues?  Take the automotive industry.
> > They have been building cars 100 years.  You would think they have
> > it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
> > are easy to piece together and easy to fix.  Alas, the manufacturers
> > do not standardize much, if at all!  Are there standard size alternators
> >
> > withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
> > auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?  Can you
> > take your pick of X number of standard bearings?  For some reason, things
> > that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a standard
> > configuration.  Imagine how nice it would be to go to the auto parts store,
> > and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
> > you need!  Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
> > this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
> >
> > perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
> >
> > as to why this doesn't happen?  Standardization comes at a cost.
> > What is that cost?  Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
> >
> > manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
> > shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
> > bullet proof for all turbines.  It's that cost savings, likely, that
prevents
> > standardization.  Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
> > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
> > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks
> >
> > Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
> > Any developed art has building blocks that can be combined into a system. 
Usually each building block is self-sufficient, and capable of handling its own
basic function, so one can then combine components.
> > Not so in small wind.
> >
> > From the very beginning, I noticed that research grants and certifying
agencies wanted to see "complete systems", including all electronics, the tower,
all shut-off switches, cables, every single detail of a complete system,
specified by the turbine developer or researcher.
> >
> > I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a more powerful turbine, no agency
is capable of simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?  I imagined agencies
like NREL having a bunch of towers with wiring and inverters, and if you had an
interesting turbine they'd just call you up and say: "Hey can you bring one of
those here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
> >
> > But no, they could only test "a complete system".  It seemed like there was
"something wrong with this picture", like having to design a complete house just
to test an air conditioner.
> >
> > The thing that really struck me was the number of parties capable, or
willing, to develop one building-block, say a turbine that was capable of
protecting itself, was much higher than the number of parties capable of
developing an entire system.
> >
> > For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning about airfoils, propellers and
bearings, power and swept area, spinning and twirling, pirouetting and furling,
horsepower and watts, RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine designer has to
know.
> >
> > But I found that nobody could or would test just a turbine.  They only
wanted to test a complete system including tower and all cabling and electronics
including the inverter.
> >
> > Lets assume someone had developed a 100% foolproof turbine that was quiet,
could never burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.  Nobody would have been
willing to test it, certify it, none of that.  Nope.  You had to have "a
complete system".
> >
> > At first it seemed like some hard news, but perhaps reasonable.  But the
real problem slowly dawned on me:  No inverter was capable of simply protecting
itself.  No inverter was "turbine-ready".  A self-sufficient inverter for a wind
turbine simply did not exist.  None of the inverter companies seemed to care or
"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on boxes with dump loads etc. were
expensive workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box and a wall full of
electronics to allow you to screw in a light bulb.  Ridiculous.
> >
> > For years now I've been dabbling in the field of electronics, to try and
create more affordable band-aids than the inverter companies were offering, but
that takes us back to the basic affordability and complexity of a system.
> >
> > To me, by the time every new aspect or consideration means another $1000
add-on, few customers would be interested in a financially top-heavy Rube
Goldberg agglomeration of failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot every
time the wind is strong.
> >
> > Additionally, asking anyone developing a turbine to out-think hundreds of
trained electrical engineers just to get a turbine tested is not realistic.  No,
the answer is for each component to take care of itself, then they can be
combined.  If a turbine can protect itself under any conditions, and an inverter
can protect itself under any conditions, then you can combine them and have a
system that will protect itself under any conditions.
> >
> > Instead, we ask people developing turbines to make up for the failure of the
inverter designers.  We tell the turbine developers: You must supersede
highly-talented electronic and electrical engineers because they simply cannot
be expected to do their job - YOU must do their job, or you are just not good
enough, your turbine is just not good enough, and the green energy movement will
stop here.  Stuck in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying tickets to the
next trade-show to notice.
> >
> > Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
> >
> > Hey here's a clue:
> > If we had inverters that could handle themselves, anyone could develop a
turbine and connect it, and maybe this art would not be still stuck in the same
exact place it was 10 years ago.
> >
> > :)
> > Doug Selsam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "boB G" <bob@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Doug is right on here, however, there are add-ons for some of these
inverters to do what his Windy Girl does.
> > >
> > > Some call it a clamp, some call it a limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips
the voltage like audio signals get clipped)
> > >
> > > Did you know that SMA actually makes a voltage limiter for their Windy Boy
??  I can't remember exactly what they call it but am surprised that I don't
here it talked about more.
> > >
> > > I think that  Power One makes a voltage limiter for the Aurora grid tie
inverter.
> > >
> > > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that consists of a long series of
diodes that was made for their E110 (?) that was being used with Outback MX60s
for a while.
> > >
> > > As far as I have found, a controllable limiter is best, since it can
reduce RPMs when the grid goes away or the batteries are full or the controller
or inverter is at its maximum rated output power.
> > >
> > > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a built in Clipper but it makes
sense that this would be an external add on with the rectifiers built in as
well.
> > >
> > > boB
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.  I've sold a
few of these, and own a couple more. We can program a SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY. 
The unit is ruined if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.  And WindyBOY
takes DC input whereas a wind turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.  I think I'm just
repeating myself here, implying people are replying without reading my original
post.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for again making my point, that there is no grid-tie inverter
available that you can plug a wind turbine into and have it just work.
> > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example of a grid-tie inverter that you
can just plug a turbine into and have it work. (nice try though...)
> > > >
> > > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL - electronics that will protect your
WindyBOY inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out your turbine by braking
it.  I will keep working on it.
> > > >
> > > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I don't think either is a guarantee
you won't seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to ruin the inverter.  I
wouldn't I'd bet your inverter on the idea that no gust combined with a changing
wind direction (dust devil?) could ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
moment.
> > > >
> > > > All it takes is a second of high voltage to smoke the input capacitors,
as they have a very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and ---zap--- - you
are sending out your entire inverter for repairs.  Just the shipping back and
forth will empty your wallet, let alone the repair cost.
> > > >
> > > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a mass-e-mail from a Chinese
distributor selling battery-charging inverters that use a dump load, in response
to the topic of a grid-tie inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
understanding.
> > > >
> > > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
> > > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine that can take a Turbine as Input"
> > > >
> > > > If you want to refute my post, saying that such is not currently
available, please give an example and explain how it takes 3-phase input and is
not damaged by overvoltage.  In other words, please stick to the topic and do
not diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
> > > >
> > > > If this simple idea is too complicated for anyone to even understand
what I am talking about, that may explain why none are available.
> > > >
> > > > :)
> > > > Doug S.
> > > >
> > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �WindyBoy� ?
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Doug
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
> > > > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of green green green, and tried to
participate. Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air pollution - I've heard
all the reasons...
> > > > >
> > > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google, BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened
to the pronouncements of (future) progress...
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
> > > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and happy-talk, the most advanced
country on Earth, has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a windmill
into and have it work.
> > > > > Yup that sounds about right.
> > > > >
> > > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
> > > > > I guess, just like we'll never see another man on the moon, we'll
never have a grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all those green agencies are
BUSY! Busy planning the next conference that will take a few more million
gallons of oil to get everyone there.
> > > > >
> > > > > What, you say you have a windmill and want to plug it into the grid?
Oh that's nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > ==========================================================
> > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > . Please feel free to send your input to:
> >   small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
> >   small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > . To view previous messages from the list,
> >   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
> >   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
> >   (and read it on the Web), go to
> >   http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
> > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
> >   http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

GEOFF and Doug and All:

Indirectly, I have tried to indicate that the designer has to make sure that all
the parts fit, properly the end product including the proper protection -- so if
the designer has a wind mill and want to make a system, it is the designer
responsibility to properly fit all the parts that compose the system duly
protected.

Reason why right now a high level of wind mills are being self destroyed or
burnt out just  because the designer  put out a wind mill with limited
capabilities and bad protection implementation.

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Geoff Thomas
   To: Doug
   Cc: SWH ; Nando ; Michael Klemen
   Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 19:22
   Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks


   Doug, I don't agree it is the turbine manufacturers job to do anything except
make the turbine and Tower or provide data for tower to be made near the site.
   I find it a huge problem that manufacturers insist on supplying their own
controllers and Inverters, as that severely limits the systems that can be
designed with such a turbine.
   For example a New Zealand company makes a 500kW turbine, passive pitch of
course one of my requirements, but it had a controller, inverter, etc. that you
had to buy.
   It wasn't a very economical lot of extras, so simply purchasing the whole
caboodle and binning their stuff was not economical.
   My requirement at the time was a situation requiring 1 Megawatt, I had a 2 meg
Inverter that required 1100 volts DC, and converters to use almost any AC
voltage below that.
   As they would not supply the two turbines without their gear, I could not go
ahead with that job, it was a big job and sorely missed.
   I notice that that company is not doing well now, and wonder if their rigidity
is to blame.
   Likewise Inverters, most of the Grid/connect-Stand/alone combination inverters
on the market are also Inverter chargers, which both adds unnecessary cost to an
already expensive machine, and usually also requires a large generator because
it can't charge and Invert at the same time so the Generator has to carry the
load whilst batteries are being charged by it.
   If it is supplying the house from a grid, then even if the local grid is
toxic, the Inverter can't supply the house when charging but switch to grid
supply.
   I find it much more economical to have a small separate back-up charger,
whether from a genset or the grid, - or both, and rely on the wind to provide
most of the power to the batteries and the Inverter to always power the load.
   Yes, it is a design philosophy, but very annoying that packages of components
are joined together based on the old Generator centric model and make it
difficult or impossible for other ways such as my Battery centric designs.
   Currently I am finishing off a stand/alone installation which has Wind, Solar
and Hydro input, with a small back-up generator powered by wood gas, all into
the one battery bank, how many wind turbine manufacturers would be able to
supply such a system?
   I believe that it is the job of the designer to make sure all the components
match each other and everything is protected, the wind turbine manufacturer
should focus on making good wind turbines.


   Cheers,
   Geoff Thomas.


   On 30/07/2012, at 5:44 AM, Doug wrote:



     Mike:
     I didn't even mention standardization. That's not what I meant by "building
blocks". Lest my point be lost, I said I think if each component can protect
itself under all conditions, then they can be combined into a system that
protects itself under all conditions.

     I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
     I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine designer is asked to
protect the inverter because the inverters have no protection from the most
common problem a turbine is likely to throw at them, either before being loaded
down during initialization, or during a storm, especially if the grid goes down.

     The reason is because inverters were designed for solar, as illustrated by
the fact that they cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the average turbine.

     Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask the turbine manufacturer to
handle. Their inverters are simply not true wind turbine inverters. Nobody makes
a true wind turbine inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to think it was
just a huge problem for me, but I see it is really a huge problem for the entire
industry and a main reason why this industry is stuck in neutral, or maybe first
gear.

     Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb to provide protection for the
house wiring. The house wiring can protect itself. If any appliance has a short
circuit, you don't have to send your house back to the manufacturer for
rewiring, because someone thought it through, and decided the house had to
protect itself. They included circuit-breakers or fuses to properly protect the
house wiring.

     The operative word is not "standardization" of components, in the sense of
swapping parts between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in the sense that
the bozo specifying capacitors that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
error, should then realize that he needs to include a way to protect that
component from that condition.

     It's nice to tell the turbine designer to include a rectifier because your
inverter is made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage protection, because
the sun never gets twice as bright, but the explanation why is always the same:
The inverter was designed for solar and they just don't care about wind enough
to do anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid "wind turbine interface
box" and a "dump load" that doubles your cost, takes twice the space, and turns
red-hot when it gets windy.

     So the turbine person is on their own, trying to do the job of the inverter
designer.

     The standardization of car parts fitting other cars is there to a large
extent anyway - you can put the same fender or Delco alternator on either your
Camaro, or your Firebird, but electrical parts can fit together between brands
even more easily, because of standardized wire sizes and connectors, and the
fact that the intermediary is electricity, which is generic and brand-neutral.

     Thanks for writing.
     Doug Selsam
     http://www.selsam.com

     --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Michael Klemen <wind4energy@...>
wrote:
     >
     > Doug,
     >
     > Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
     > because you do.  But if we take another industry and compare it to
     > wind, can it provide valuable clues?  Take the automotive industry.
     > They have been building cars 100 years.  You would think they have
     > it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
     > are easy to piece together and easy to fix.  Alas, the manufacturers
     > do not standardize much, if at all!  Are there standard size alternators
     >
     > withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
     > auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?  Can you
     > take your pick of X number of standard bearings?  For some reason, things
     > that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a standard
     > configuration.  Imagine how nice it would be to go to the auto parts
store,
     > and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
     > you need!  Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
     > this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
     >
     > perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
     >
     > as to why this doesn't happen?  Standardization comes at a cost.
     > What is that cost?  Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
     >
     > manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
     > shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
     > bullet proof for all turbines.  It's that cost savings, likely, that
prevents
     > standardization.  Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
     >
     > Mike
     >
     >
     >
     > ________________________________
     > From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
     > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
     > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
     > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks
     >
     > Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
     > Any developed art has building blocks that can be combined into a system. 
Usually each building block is self-sufficient, and capable of handling its own
basic function, so one can then combine components.
     > Not so in small wind.
     >
     > From the very beginning, I noticed that research grants and certifying
agencies wanted to see "complete systems", including all electronics, the tower,
all shut-off switches, cables, every single detail of a complete system,
specified by the turbine developer or researcher.
     >
     > I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a more powerful turbine, no
agency is capable of simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?  I imagined
agencies like NREL having a bunch of towers with wiring and inverters, and if
you had an interesting turbine they'd just call you up and say: "Hey can you
bring one of those here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
     >
     > But no, they could only test "a complete system".  It seemed like there
was "something wrong with this picture", like having to design a complete house
just to test an air conditioner.
     >
     > The thing that really struck me was the number of parties capable, or
willing, to develop one building-block, say a turbine that was capable of
protecting itself, was much higher than the number of parties capable of
developing an entire system.
     >
     > For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning about airfoils, propellers
and bearings, power and swept area, spinning and twirling, pirouetting and
furling, horsepower and watts, RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine designer
has to know.
     >
     > But I found that nobody could or would test just a turbine.  They only
wanted to test a complete system including tower and all cabling and electronics
including the inverter.
     >
     > Lets assume someone had developed a 100% foolproof turbine that was quiet,
could never burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.  Nobody would have been
willing to test it, certify it, none of that.  Nope.  You had to have "a
complete system".
     >
     > At first it seemed like some hard news, but perhaps reasonable.  But the
real problem slowly dawned on me:  No inverter was capable of simply protecting
itself.  No inverter was "turbine-ready".  A self-sufficient inverter for a wind
turbine simply did not exist.  None of the inverter companies seemed to care or
"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on boxes with dump loads etc. were
expensive workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box and a wall full of
electronics to allow you to screw in a light bulb.  Ridiculous.
     >
     > For years now I've been dabbling in the field of electronics, to try and
create more affordable band-aids than the inverter companies were offering, but
that takes us back to the basic affordability and complexity of a system.
     >
     > To me, by the time every new aspect or consideration means another $1000
add-on, few customers would be interested in a financially top-heavy Rube
Goldberg agglomeration of failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot every
time the wind is strong.
     >
     > Additionally, asking anyone developing a turbine to out-think hundreds of
trained electrical engineers just to get a turbine tested is not realistic.  No,
the answer is for each component to take care of itself, then they can be
combined.  If a turbine can protect itself under any conditions, and an inverter
can protect itself under any conditions, then you can combine them and have a
system that will protect itself under any conditions.
     >
     > Instead, we ask people developing turbines to make up for the failure of
the inverter designers.  We tell the turbine developers: You must supersede
highly-talented electronic and electrical engineers because they simply cannot
be expected to do their job - YOU must do their job, or you are just not good
enough, your turbine is just not good enough, and the green energy movement will
stop here.  Stuck in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying tickets to the
next trade-show to notice.
     >
     > Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
     >
     > Hey here's a clue:
     > If we had inverters that could handle themselves, anyone could develop a
turbine and connect it, and maybe this art would not be still stuck in the same
exact place it was 10 years ago.
     >
     > :)
     > Doug Selsam
     >
     >
     >
     >
     > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "boB G" <bob@> wrote:
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > Doug is right on here, however, there are add-ons for some of these
inverters to do what his Windy Girl does.
     > >
     > > Some call it a clamp, some call it a limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips
the voltage like audio signals get clipped)
     > >
     > > Did you know that SMA actually makes a voltage limiter for their Windy
Boy  ??  I can't remember exactly what they call it but am surprised that I
don't here it talked about more.
     > >
     > > I think that  Power One makes a voltage limiter for the Aurora grid tie
inverter.
     > >
     > > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that consists of a long series of
diodes that was made for their E110 (?) that was being used with Outback MX60s
for a while.
     > >
     > > As far as I have found, a controllable limiter is best, since it can
reduce RPMs when the grid goes away or the batteries are full or the controller
or inverter is at its maximum rated output power.
     > >
     > > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a built in Clipper but it makes
sense that this would be an external add on with the rectifiers built in as
well.
     > >
     > > boB
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
     > > >
     > > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.  I've sold
a few of these, and own a couple more. We can program a SunnyBOY into a
WindyBOY.  The unit is ruined if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.  And
WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.  I think
I'm just repeating myself here, implying people are replying without reading my
original post.
     > > >
     > > > Thanks for again making my point, that there is no grid-tie inverter
available that you can plug a wind turbine into and have it just work.
     > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example of a grid-tie inverter that
you can just plug a turbine into and have it work. (nice try though...)
     > > >
     > > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL - electronics that will protect
your WindyBOY inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out your turbine by
braking it.  I will keep working on it.
     > > >
     > > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I don't think either is a
guarantee you won't seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to ruin the
inverter.  I wouldn't I'd bet your inverter on the idea that no gust combined
with a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could ever spin the machine a tad
fast for a brief moment.
     > > >
     > > > All it takes is a second of high voltage to smoke the input
capacitors, as they have a very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
---zap--- - you are sending out your entire inverter for repairs.  Just the
shipping back and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the repair cost.
     > > >
     > > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a mass-e-mail from a Chinese
distributor selling battery-charging inverters that use a dump load, in response
to the topic of a grid-tie inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
understanding.
     > > >
     > > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
     > > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine that can take a Turbine as
Input"
     > > >
     > > > If you want to refute my post, saying that such is not currently
available, please give an example and explain how it takes 3-phase input and is
not damaged by overvoltage.  In other words, please stick to the topic and do
not diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
     > > >
     > > > If this simple idea is too complicated for anyone to even understand
what I am talking about, that may explain why none are available.
     > > >
     > > > :)
     > > > Doug S.
     > > >
     > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "James R. Parish" <JRP@>
wrote:
     > > > >
     > > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �WindyBoy� ?
     > > > >
     > > > > From: Doug
     > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
     > > > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
     > > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? - stone
age
     > > > >
     > > > >
     > > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of green green green, and tried to
participate. Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air pollution - I've heard
all the reasons...
     > > > >
     > > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google, BP, GE, SWWP - I've
listened to the pronouncements of (future) progress...
     > > > >
     > > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
     > > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and happy-talk, the most
advanced country on Earth, has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
windmill into and have it work.
     > > > > Yup that sounds about right.
     > > > >
     > > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
     > > > > I guess, just like we'll never see another man on the moon, we'll
never have a grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all those green agencies are
BUSY! Busy planning the next conference that will take a few more million
gallons of oil to get everyone there.
     > > > >
     > > > > What, you say you have a windmill and want to plug it into the grid?
Oh that's nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
     > > > >
     > > > >
     > > > >
     > > > >
     > > > >
     > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
     > > > >
     > > >
     > >
     >
     >
     >
     >
     > ------------------------------------
     >
     > ==========================================================
     > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
     > ----------------------------------------------------------
     > . Please feel free to send your input to:
     >   small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
     > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
     >   small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
     > . To view previous messages from the list,
     >   subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
     >   or stop receiving the list by e-mail
     >   (and read it on the Web), go to
     >   http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
     > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
     >   http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
     >
     > ----------------------------------------------------------
     > Yahoo! Groups Links
     >
     >
     >
     > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
     >







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, Neil,



<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313US315&i\
e=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#><http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient\
&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313US315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>Mid-America Windmill
Museummore
info<http://maps.google.com/local_url?dq=windmill+near+Museum,+Fort+Wayne,+India\
na&q=https://plus.google.com/110860056627962249260/about%3Fgl%3Dus%26hl%3Den&s=A\
NYYN7nw29mznL_5YF58iW1xL-e5QLUoww&dtab=2><http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sour\
ceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313US315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>Address:<htt\
p://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313US315&ie=UT\
F-8&q=windmill+museum#>[Station is
accessible][http://maps.gstatic.com/mapfiles/transparent.png]�

Not true?<javascript:void(0)> Show all edits<javascript:void(0)> Not
true?<javascript:void(0)>
Placement on map is approximate
732 South Allen Chapel
Road<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313US3\
15&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>
Kendallville, IN 46755

I stopped there but they were closed at the time. You can see a lot from the
fence, but try to get a tour. It's north of Route 6.

Frank Leslie

Get
directions<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS\
313US315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>
<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313US315&i\
e=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>�
(260)
347-2334<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS31\
3US315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>
midamericawindmillmuseum.org<http://maps.google.com/local_url?dq=windmill+near+M\
useum,+Fort+Wayne,+Indiana&q=http://www.midamericawindmillmuseum.org/&oi=miw&sa=\
X&ct=miw_link&cd=1&cad=homepage,cid:15478464227202792602&ei=rIwWULy3BY3Ntgfq8ID4\
CQ&s=ANYYN7l0Zxpo4SUQICw-ICAtBo9SIhQdnA>�
Area served: -
Category:
<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313US315&i\
e=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>
�
Unverified listing
22 ZAGAT � 1 review2
reviews<http://maps.google.com/local_url?dq=windmill+near+Museum,+Fort+Wayne,+In\
diana&q=https://plus.google.com/110860056627962249260/about%3Fgl%3Dus%26hl%3Den&\
s=ANYYN7nw29mznL_5YF58iW1xL-e5QLUoww&dtab=2>1 reviewX
reviews<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313\
US315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>1 reviewX reviews1 reviewX reviewsWrite a
review<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313U\
S315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>Write a
review<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313U\
S315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>
[Photo]<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313\
US315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>[Photo]<http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sour\
ceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS313US315&ie=UTF-8&q=windmill+museum#>
<javascript:void(0)>
[http://cbk0.google.com/cbk?output=thumbnail&w=90&h=68&ll=41.434674,-85.232133&t\
humb=0]

________________________________
From: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] on
behalf of Neil Dennis [wombatt@...]
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 4:42 PM
To: small-wind-home swh
Subject: [s-w-h] wind museum



FWIW, my sister is visiting, she was telling about seeing a big wind
machine museum at, I think, Kendallville, Indiana.

Just wondering if anyone has seen it or knows of it ??

wombat

ya think they can make�a smaller one work?
�
Offshore use of vertical-axis wind turbines gets closer look
Posted: 30 Jul 2012 05:46 PM PDT
Wind energy researchers are re-evaluating vertical axis wind turbines (VAWTs) to
help solve some of the problems of generating energy from offshore breezes.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

woops - no link!
 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120730204607.htm?utm_source=feedbur\
ner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fearth_climate%2Fenviron\
mental_science+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Earth+%26+Climate+News+--+Environmental+Scienc\
e%29 



________________________________
From: "averettr@..." <averettr@...>
To: "small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com" <small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:16 AM
Subject: [s-w-h] Offshore use of vertical-axis wind turbines gets closer look


 
ya think they can make a smaller one work?
 
Offshore use of vertical-axis wind turbines gets closer look
Posted: 30 Jul 2012 05:46 PM PDT
Wind energy researchers are re-evaluating vertical axis wind turbines (VAWTs) to
help solve some of the problems of generating energy from offshore breezes.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Doug,

I'm not sure why "we" get to decide what businesses should do.

It seems to me that if a business can design an
inverter that pleases you, you will buy it
(though I suspect that you may decide you can't
afford it ;-)  ).

Meanwhile, each business is making its own
decisions about what products it can profitably
design and sell.

I don't think any inverter manufacturer "asks" us
to do anything, unless it's to read the specs on
the piece of gear we voluntarily pay for, and
decide whether it's worth it to us. I suppose
they would also like us to understand its
limitations and not kill it and then blame them.

Your house wire/light bulb example seems to
confirm my view -- the wire manufacturer produces
wire with certain ratings, and if you use it in a
way it wasn't designed for, it could fail.

I'm with you when you suggest or even list what
qualities _you would like_ in an inverter. You
lose me when you seem to assume that there is
some obligation for someone else to design
something that you like. If there's enough demand
for a product, and someone can make it
profitably, it may happen. If very few people
want it, and aren't willing to pay for it amply,
it probably won't happen.

Best,

Ian

At 7:44 PM +0000 7/29/12, Doug wrote:
>
>
>Mike:
>I didn't even mention standardization. That's
>not what I meant by "building blocks". Lest my
>point be lost, I said I think if each component
>can protect itself under all conditions, then
>they can be combined into a system that protects
>itself under all conditions.
>
>I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
>I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine
>designer is asked to protect the inverter
>because the inverters have no protection from
>the most common problem a turbine is likely to
>throw at them, either before being loaded down
>during initialization, or during a storm,
>especially if the grid goes down.
>
>The reason is because inverters were designed
>for solar, as illustrated by the fact that they
>cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the
>average turbine.
>
>Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask
>the turbine manufacturer to handle. Their
>inverters are simply not true wind turbine
>inverters. Nobody makes a true wind turbine
>inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to
>think it was just a huge problem for me, but I
>see it is really a huge problem for the entire
>industry and a main reason why this industry is
>stuck in neutral, or maybe first gear.
>
>Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb
>to provide protection for the house wiring. The
>house wiring can protect itself. If any
>appliance has a short circuit, you don't have to
>send your house back to the manufacturer for
>rewiring, because someone thought it through,
>and decided the house had to protect itself.
>They included circuit-breakers or fuses to
>properly protect the house wiring.
>
>The operative word is not "standardization" of
>components, in the sense of swapping parts
>between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in
>the sense that the bozo specifying capacitors
>that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
>error, should then realize that he needs to
>include a way to protect that component from
>that condition.
>
>It's nice to tell the turbine designer to
>include a rectifier because your inverter is
>made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage
>protection, because the sun never gets twice as
>bright, but the explanation why is always the
>same: The inverter was designed for solar and
>they just don't care about wind enough to do
>anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid
>"wind turbine interface box" and a "dump load"
>that doubles your cost, takes twice the space,
>and turns red-hot when it gets windy.
>
>So the turbine person is on their own, trying to
>do the job of the inverter designer.
>
>The standardization of car parts fitting other
>cars is there to a large extent anyway - you can
>put the same fender or Delco alternator on
>either your Camaro, or your Firebird, but
>electrical parts can fit together between brands
>even more easily, because of standardized wire
>sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
>intermediary is electricity, which is generic
>and brand-neutral.
>
>Thanks for writing.
>Doug Selsam
><http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com
>
>--- In
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>Michael Klemen <wind4energy@...> wrote:
>>
>>  Doug,
>>
>>  Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
>>  because you do.�  But if we take another industry and compare it to
>>  wind, can it provide valuable clues?�  Take the automotive industry.
>>  They have been building cars 100 years.�  You would think they have
>>  it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
>>  are easy to piece together and easy to fix.�  Alas, the manufacturers
>>  do not standardize much, if at all!�  Are there standard size alternators
>>
>>  withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
>>  auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?�  Can you
>>  take your pick of X number of standard bearings?�  For some reason, things
>>  that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a standard
>>  configuration.�  Imagine how nice it would be to go to the auto parts store,
>>  and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
>>  you need!�  Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
>>  this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
>>
>>  perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
>>
>>  as to why this doesn't happen?�  Standardization comes at a cost.
>>  What is that cost?�  Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
>>
>>  manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
>>  shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
>>  bullet proof for all turbines.�  It's that
>>cost savings, likely, that prevents
>>  standardization.�  Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
>>
>>  Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>  ________________________________
>>  From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
>>  To:
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>>  Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
>>  Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks
>>
>>  Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
>>  Any developed art has building blocks that can
>>be combined into a system.�  Usually each
>>building block is self-sufficient, and capable
>>of handling its own basic function, so one can
>>then combine components.
>>  Not so in small wind.
>>
>>  From the very beginning, I noticed that
>>research grants and certifying agencies wanted
>>to see "complete systems", including all
>>electronics, the tower, all shut-off switches,
>>cables, every single detail of a complete
>>system, specified by the turbine developer or
>>researcher.
>>
>>  I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a
>>more powerful turbine, no agency is capable of
>>simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?�
>>I imagined agencies like NREL having a bunch of
>>towers with wiring and inverters, and if you
>>had an interesting turbine they'd just call you
>>up and say: "Hey can you bring one of those
>>here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
>>
>>  But no, they could only test "a complete
>>system".�  It seemed like there was "something
>>wrong with this picture", like having to design
>>a complete house just to test an air
>>conditioner.
>>
>>  The thing that really struck me was the number
>>of parties capable, or willing, to develop one
>>building-block, say a turbine that was capable
>>of protecting itself, was much higher than the
>>number of parties capable of developing an
>>entire system.
>>
>>  For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning
>>about airfoils, propellers and bearings, power
>>and swept area, spinning and twirling,
>>pirouetting and furling, horsepower and watts,
>>RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine
>>designer has to know.
>>
>>  But I found that nobody could or would test
>>just a turbine.�  They only wanted to test a
>>complete system including tower and all cabling
>>and electronics including the inverter.
>>
>>  Lets assume someone had developed a 100%
>>foolproof turbine that was quiet, could never
>>burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.�
>>Nobody would have been willing to test it,
>>certify it, none of that.�  Nope.�  You had to
>>have "a complete system".
>  >
>>  At first it seemed like some hard news, but
>>perhaps reasonable.�  But the real problem
>>slowly dawned on me:�  No inverter was capable
>>of simply protecting itself.�  No inverter was
>>"turbine-ready".�  A self-sufficient inverter
>>for a wind turbine simply did not exist.�  None
>>of the inverter companies seemed to care or
>>"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on
>>boxes with dump loads etc. were expensive
>>workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box
>>and a wall full of electronics to allow you to
>>screw in a light bulb.�  Ridiculous.
>>
>>  For years now I've been dabbling in the field
>>of electronics, to try and create more
>>affordable band-aids than the inverter
>>companies were offering, but that takes us back
>>to the basic affordability and complexity of a
>>system.�
>>
>>  To me, by the time every new aspect or
>>consideration means another $1000 add-on, few
>>customers would be interested in a financially
>>top-heavy Rube Goldberg agglomeration of
>>failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot
>>every time the wind is strong.
>>
>>  Additionally, asking anyone developing a
>>turbine to out-think hundreds of trained
>>electrical engineers just to get a turbine
>>tested is not realistic.�  No, the answer is
>>for each component to take care of itself, then
>>they can be combined.�  If a turbine can
>>protect itself under any conditions, and an
>>inverter can protect itself under any
>>conditions, then you can combine them and have
>>a system that will protect itself under any
>>conditions.
>>
>>  Instead, we ask people developing turbines to
>>make up for the failure of the inverter
>>designers.�  We tell the turbine developers:
>>You must supersede highly-talented electronic
>>and electrical engineers because they simply
>>cannot be expected to do their job - YOU must
>>do their job, or you are just not good enough,
>>your turbine is just not good enough, and the
>>green energy movement will stop here.�  Stuck
>>in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying
>>tickets to the next trade-show to notice.
>>
>>  Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
>>
>>  Hey here's a clue:
>>  If we had inverters that could handle
>>themselves, anyone could develop a turbine and
>>connect it, and maybe this art would not be
>>still stuck in the same exact place it was 10
>>years ago.
>>
>>  :)
>>  Doug Selsam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --- In
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>"boB G" <bob@> wrote:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Doug is right on here, however, there are
>>add-ons for some of these inverters to do what
>>his Windy Girl does.
>>  >
>>  > Some call it a clamp, some call it a
>>limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the voltage
>>like audio signals get clipped)
>>  >
>>  > Did you know that SMA actually makes a
>>voltage limiter for their Windy Boy�  ??�  I
>>can't remember exactly what they call it but am
>>surprised that I don't here it talked about
>>more.
>>  >
>>  > I think that�  Power One makes a voltage
>>limiter for the Aurora grid tie inverter.
>>  >
>>  > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that
>>consists of a long series of diodes that was
>>made for their E110 (?) that was being used
>>with Outback MX60s for a while.
>>  >
>>  > As far as I have found, a controllable
>>limiter is best, since it can reduce RPMs when
>>the grid goes away or the batteries are full or
>>the controller or inverter is at its maximum
>>rated output power.
>>  >
>>  > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a
>>built in Clipper but it makes sense that this
>>would be an external add on with the rectifiers
>>built in as well.
>>  >
>>  > boB
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > --- In
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>"Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
>>  > >
>>  > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and
>>repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.�  I've sold a few of
>>these, and own a couple more. We can program a
>>SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.�  The unit is ruined
>>if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.�
>>And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind
>>turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.�  I think I'm
>>just repeating myself here, implying people are
>>replying without reading my original post.
>>  > >
>>  > > Thanks for again making my point, that
>>there is no grid-tie inverter available that
>>you can plug a wind turbine into and have it
>>just work.
>  > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example
>of a grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
>turbine into and have it work. (nice try
>though...)
>>  > >
>>  > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL -
>>electronics that will protect your WindyBOY
>>inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out
>>your turbine by braking it.�  I will keep
>>working on it.
>>  > >
>>  > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I
>>don't think either is a guarantee you won't
>>seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to
>>ruin the inverter.�  I wouldn't I'd bet your
>>inverter on the idea that no gust combined with
>>a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could
>>ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
>>moment.
>>  > >
>>  > > All it takes is a second of high voltage
>>to smoke the input capacitors, as they have a
>>very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
>>---zap--- - you are sending out your entire
>>inverter for repairs.�  Just the shipping back
>>and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the
>>repair cost.
>>  > >
>>  > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a
>>mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor selling
>>battery-charging inverters that use a dump
>>load, in response to the topic of a grid-tie
>>inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
>>understanding.
>>  > >
>>  > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
>>  > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine that can take a Turbine as Input"
>>  > >
>>  > > If you want to refute my post, saying that
>>such is not currently available, please give an
>>example and explain how it takes 3-phase input
>>and is not damaged by overvoltage.�  In other
>>words, please stick to the topic and do not
>>diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
>>  > >
>>  > > If this simple idea is too complicated for
>>anyone to even understand what I am talking
>>about, that may explain why none are available.
>>  > >
>>  > > :)
>>  > > Doug S.
>>  > >
>>  > > --- In
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>"James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
>>  > > >
>>  > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �*�WindyBoy�*� ?
>>  > > >
>>  > > > From: Doug
>>  > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
>>  > > > To:
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>>  > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
>>  > > >
>>  > > >�
>>  > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of
>>green green green, and tried to participate.
>>Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air
>>pollution - I've heard all the reasons...
>>  > > >
>>  > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google,
>>BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to the
>>pronouncements of (future) progress...
>>  > > >
>>  > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
>>  > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and
>>happy-talk, the most advanced country on Earth,
>>has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug
>>a windmill into and have it work.
>>  > > > Yup that sounds about right.
>>  > > >
>>  > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
>>  > > > I guess, just like we'll never see
>>another man on the moon, we'll never have a
>>grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all
>>those green agencies are BUSY! Busy planning
>>the next conference that will take a few more
>>million gallons of oil to get everyone there.
>>  > > >
>>  > > > What, you say you have a windmill and
>>want to plug it into the grid? Oh that's
>>nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
>>  > > >
>>  > > >
>>  > > >
>>  > > >
>>  > > >
>>  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>  > > >
>>  > >
>>  >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------------
>>
>>  ==========================================================
>>  THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------
>>  . Please feel free to send your input to:
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>>  . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
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>>  . To view previous messages from the list,
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st/small-wind-home
>>.�
>>  . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
>>  �
>><http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
>>.
>>
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------
>>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doug (and All),

You are a dynamic and creative man.
A few years ago I started the design of a MPPT controller for the small wind
world with a few key concepts in mind.
Among them were the "building blocks" , DIY, kits, easy spare parts supplying,
easy understanding, documentation, education, in order to allow poor and remote
people to adapt the gear and fix troubles themselves.
It was a kind of synergy with Hugh Piggott's work (He were consulted)
I couldn't complete my design because it was time consuming and the price were
growing too much to achieve a good reliability with a large safety margin versus
Hugh's specifications.
However the thing is not impossible to make.
If we look at the RC model world, there are plenty of small devices, engines,
controllers, parts, materials, which are available and affordable.

This forum list is, with some others, a good place to build the ideas of these
lacking blocks.

I invite everyone here to submit their own preliminary set of design
specifications.

Of course they will be very different but writing is often a good way to clarify
fuzzy ideas.

May be one day soon, someone will be able to use this data, federate and propose
practical achievements.

Michel


De : small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Doug
Envoy� : dimanche 29 juillet 2012 21:44
� : small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks

._,___


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ian:
I'm posting here what I see as the obvious characteristics a grid-tie inverter
for wind turbines should have, starting with the fact that it should take a
common home-size wind turbine as input and ending with the fact that it should
be able to protect itself.

I've stated that this would enable easier development of reliable complete
systems, as long as the turbine was also capable of protecting itself.

I've cited as evidence that the one consistently reliable brand in common use,
the Bergey 10kW system, uses such an inverter.

I've also stated that I have such an inverter here, it works great, and that the
company is going out of business.

I can afford anything.  I'm worried about system cost for people on a budget.

"We" don't "decide" what businesses do, unless we own the business.  On the
other hand, this internet is supposed to allow us to discuss things like what an
inverter for wind turbines would be like and that we would like to see one.

maybe someone from, say, NREL or the NWTC or the SWCC will read this, decide it
makes sense, and in some conversation with an inverter company, let them know
that nobody is really producing an inverter for wind energy at all, tell them
the simple added features it would neeed to have, and maybe we could see such an
inverter offered as a result.

The process is communication and feedback.

I guess the most mystifying part is why I have to bring this up after so many
years of happy-talk about green energy.  And of course those with too much t9ime
on their hands has to come out of the woodwork to try and make a simple
observation of a fact into some sort of argument, or an excuse to promote their
pet theory.

I guess your point is "Why should anyone care what anyone thinks?" or "Why
should we communicate?"  or "Why would you ever suggest an improvement" or "Why
would you, after 10 years of beating your head against the wall in small wind,
identify a major obstacle and post it on the web?"
Whatever your point is, I don't see it.  I want more inverters that I can plug
my now-trouble-free wind turbines into and have them work, OK?
I'm relating my experience and where that has led in my thoughts on what is
needed in this industry.
It's not just for me, it's for everyone who wants a grid-tie wind system that
works.

Take it for what it's worth.


--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I'm not sure why "we" get to decide what businesses should do.
>
> It seems to me that if a business can design an
> inverter that pleases you, you will buy it
> (though I suspect that you may decide you can't
> afford it ;-)  ).
>
> Meanwhile, each business is making its own
> decisions about what products it can profitably
> design and sell.
>
> I don't think any inverter manufacturer "asks" us
> to do anything, unless it's to read the specs on
> the piece of gear we voluntarily pay for, and
> decide whether it's worth it to us. I suppose
> they would also like us to understand its
> limitations and not kill it and then blame them.
>
> Your house wire/light bulb example seems to
> confirm my view -- the wire manufacturer produces
> wire with certain ratings, and if you use it in a
> way it wasn't designed for, it could fail.
>
> I'm with you when you suggest or even list what
> qualities _you would like_ in an inverter. You
> lose me when you seem to assume that there is
> some obligation for someone else to design
> something that you like. If there's enough demand
> for a product, and someone can make it
> profitably, it may happen. If very few people
> want it, and aren't willing to pay for it amply,
> it probably won't happen.
>
> Best,
>
> Ian
>
> At 7:44 PM +0000 7/29/12, Doug wrote:
> >
> >
> >Mike:
> >I didn't even mention standardization. That's
> >not what I meant by "building blocks". Lest my
> >point be lost, I said I think if each component
> >can protect itself under all conditions, then
> >they can be combined into a system that protects
> >itself under all conditions.
> >
> >I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
> >I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine
> >designer is asked to protect the inverter
> >because the inverters have no protection from
> >the most common problem a turbine is likely to
> >throw at them, either before being loaded down
> >during initialization, or during a storm,
> >especially if the grid goes down.
> >
> >The reason is because inverters were designed
> >for solar, as illustrated by the fact that they
> >cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the
> >average turbine.
> >
> >Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask
> >the turbine manufacturer to handle. Their
> >inverters are simply not true wind turbine
> >inverters. Nobody makes a true wind turbine
> >inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to
> >think it was just a huge problem for me, but I
> >see it is really a huge problem for the entire
> >industry and a main reason why this industry is
> >stuck in neutral, or maybe first gear.
> >
> >Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb
> >to provide protection for the house wiring. The
> >house wiring can protect itself. If any
> >appliance has a short circuit, you don't have to
> >send your house back to the manufacturer for
> >rewiring, because someone thought it through,
> >and decided the house had to protect itself.
> >They included circuit-breakers or fuses to
> >properly protect the house wiring.
> >
> >The operative word is not "standardization" of
> >components, in the sense of swapping parts
> >between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in
> >the sense that the bozo specifying capacitors
> >that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
> >error, should then realize that he needs to
> >include a way to protect that component from
> >that condition.
> >
> >It's nice to tell the turbine designer to
> >include a rectifier because your inverter is
> >made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage
> >protection, because the sun never gets twice as
> >bright, but the explanation why is always the
> >same: The inverter was designed for solar and
> >they just don't care about wind enough to do
> >anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid
> >"wind turbine interface box" and a "dump load"
> >that doubles your cost, takes twice the space,
> >and turns red-hot when it gets windy.
> >
> >So the turbine person is on their own, trying to
> >do the job of the inverter designer.
> >
> >The standardization of car parts fitting other
> >cars is there to a large extent anyway - you can
> >put the same fender or Delco alternator on
> >either your Camaro, or your Firebird, but
> >electrical parts can fit together between brands
> >even more easily, because of standardized wire
> >sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
> >intermediary is electricity, which is generic
> >and brand-neutral.
> >
> >Thanks for writing.
> >Doug Selsam
> ><http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com
> >
> >--- In
> ><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >Michael Klemen <wind4energy@> wrote:
> >>
> >>  Doug,
> >>
> >>  Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
> >>  because you do.�  But if we take another industry and compare it to
> >>  wind, can it provide valuable clues?�  Take the automotive industry.
> >>  They have been building cars 100 years.�  You would think they have
> >>  it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
> >>  are easy to piece together and easy to fix.�  Alas, the manufacturers
> >>  do not standardize much, if at all!�  Are there standard size
alternators
> >>
> >>  withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
> >>  auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?�  Can you
> >>  take your pick of X number of standard bearings?�  For some reason,
things
> >>  that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a standard
> >>  configuration.�  Imagine how nice it would be to go to the auto parts
store,
> >>  and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
> >>  you need!�  Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
> >>  this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
> >>
> >>  perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
> >>
> >>  as to why this doesn't happen?�  Standardization comes at a cost.
> >>  What is that cost?�  Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
> >>
> >>  manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
> >>  shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
> >>  bullet proof for all turbines.�  It's that
> >>cost savings, likely, that prevents
> >>  standardization.�  Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
> >>
> >>  Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  ________________________________
> >>  From: Doug <dougselsam@>
> >>  To:
> >><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>  Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
> >>  Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks
> >>
> >>  Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
> >>  Any developed art has building blocks that can
> >>be combined into a system.�  Usually each
> >>building block is self-sufficient, and capable
> >>of handling its own basic function, so one can
> >>then combine components.
> >>  Not so in small wind.
> >>
> >>  From the very beginning, I noticed that
> >>research grants and certifying agencies wanted
> >>to see "complete systems", including all
> >>electronics, the tower, all shut-off switches,
> >>cables, every single detail of a complete
> >>system, specified by the turbine developer or
> >>researcher.
> >>
> >>  I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a
> >>more powerful turbine, no agency is capable of
> >>simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?�
> >>I imagined agencies like NREL having a bunch of
> >>towers with wiring and inverters, and if you
> >>had an interesting turbine they'd just call you
> >>up and say: "Hey can you bring one of those
> >>here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
> >>
> >>  But no, they could only test "a complete
> >>system".�  It seemed like there was "something
> >>wrong with this picture", like having to design
> >>a complete house just to test an air
> >>conditioner.
> >>
> >>  The thing that really struck me was the number
> >>of parties capable, or willing, to develop one
> >>building-block, say a turbine that was capable
> >>of protecting itself, was much higher than the
> >>number of parties capable of developing an
> >>entire system.
> >>
> >>  For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning
> >>about airfoils, propellers and bearings, power
> >>and swept area, spinning and twirling,
> >>pirouetting and furling, horsepower and watts,
> >>RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine
> >>designer has to know.
> >>
> >>  But I found that nobody could or would test
> >>just a turbine.�  They only wanted to test a
> >>complete system including tower and all cabling
> >>and electronics including the inverter.
> >>
> >>  Lets assume someone had developed a 100%
> >>foolproof turbine that was quiet, could never
> >>burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.�
> >>Nobody would have been willing to test it,
> >>certify it, none of that.�  Nope.�  You had to
> >>have "a complete system".
> >  >
> >>  At first it seemed like some hard news, but
> >>perhaps reasonable.�  But the real problem
> >>slowly dawned on me:�  No inverter was capable
> >>of simply protecting itself.�  No inverter was
> >>"turbine-ready".�  A self-sufficient inverter
> >>for a wind turbine simply did not exist.�  None
> >>of the inverter companies seemed to care or
> >>"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on
> >>boxes with dump loads etc. were expensive
> >>workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box
> >>and a wall full of electronics to allow you to
> >>screw in a light bulb.�  Ridiculous.
> >>
> >>  For years now I've been dabbling in the field
> >>of electronics, to try and create more
> >>affordable band-aids than the inverter
> >>companies were offering, but that takes us back
> >>to the basic affordability and complexity of a
> >>system.�
> >>
> >>  To me, by the time every new aspect or
> >>consideration means another $1000 add-on, few
> >>customers would be interested in a financially
> >>top-heavy Rube Goldberg agglomeration of
> >>failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot
> >>every time the wind is strong.
> >>
> >>  Additionally, asking anyone developing a
> >>turbine to out-think hundreds of trained
> >>electrical engineers just to get a turbine
> >>tested is not realistic.�  No, the answer is
> >>for each component to take care of itself, then
> >>they can be combined.�  If a turbine can
> >>protect itself under any conditions, and an
> >>inverter can protect itself under any
> >>conditions, then you can combine them and have
> >>a system that will protect itself under any
> >>conditions.
> >>
> >>  Instead, we ask people developing turbines to
> >>make up for the failure of the inverter
> >>designers.�  We tell the turbine developers:
> >>You must supersede highly-talented electronic
> >>and electrical engineers because they simply
> >>cannot be expected to do their job - YOU must
> >>do their job, or you are just not good enough,
> >>your turbine is just not good enough, and the
> >>green energy movement will stop here.�  Stuck
> >>in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying
> >>tickets to the next trade-show to notice.
> >>
> >>  Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
> >>
> >>  Hey here's a clue:
> >>  If we had inverters that could handle
> >>themselves, anyone could develop a turbine and
> >>connect it, and maybe this art would not be
> >>still stuck in the same exact place it was 10
> >>years ago.
> >>
> >>  :)
> >>  Doug Selsam
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  --- In
> >><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>"boB G" <bob@> wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  > Doug is right on here, however, there are
> >>add-ons for some of these inverters to do what
> >>his Windy Girl does.
> >>  >
> >>  > Some call it a clamp, some call it a
> >>limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the voltage
> >>like audio signals get clipped)
> >>  >
> >>  > Did you know that SMA actually makes a
> >>voltage limiter for their Windy Boy�  ??�  I
> >>can't remember exactly what they call it but am
> >>surprised that I don't here it talked about
> >>more.
> >>  >
> >>  > I think that�  Power One makes a voltage
> >>limiter for the Aurora grid tie inverter.
> >>  >
> >>  > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that
> >>consists of a long series of diodes that was
> >>made for their E110 (?) that was being used
> >>with Outback MX60s for a while.
> >>  >
> >>  > As far as I have found, a controllable
> >>limiter is best, since it can reduce RPMs when
> >>the grid goes away or the batteries are full or
> >>the controller or inverter is at its maximum
> >>rated output power.
> >>  >
> >>  > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a
> >>built in Clipper but it makes sense that this
> >>would be an external add on with the rectifiers
> >>built in as well.
> >>  >
> >>  > boB
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  > --- In
> >><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>"Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
> >>  > >
> >>  > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and
> >>repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.�  I've sold a few of
> >>these, and own a couple more. We can program a
> >>SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.�  The unit is ruined
> >>if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.�
> >>And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind
> >>turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.�  I think I'm
> >>just repeating myself here, implying people are
> >>replying without reading my original post.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > Thanks for again making my point, that
> >>there is no grid-tie inverter available that
> >>you can plug a wind turbine into and have it
> >>just work.
> >  > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example
> >of a grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
> >turbine into and have it work. (nice try
> >though...)
> >>  > >
> >>  > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL -
> >>electronics that will protect your WindyBOY
> >>inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out
> >>your turbine by braking it.�  I will keep
> >>working on it.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I
> >>don't think either is a guarantee you won't
> >>seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to
> >>ruin the inverter.�  I wouldn't I'd bet your
> >>inverter on the idea that no gust combined with
> >>a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could
> >>ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
> >>moment.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > All it takes is a second of high voltage
> >>to smoke the input capacitors, as they have a
> >>very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
> >>---zap--- - you are sending out your entire
> >>inverter for repairs.�  Just the shipping back
> >>and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the
> >>repair cost.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a
> >>mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor selling
> >>battery-charging inverters that use a dump
> >>load, in response to the topic of a grid-tie
> >>inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
> >>understanding.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
> >>  > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine that can take a Turbine as
Input"
> >>  > >
> >>  > > If you want to refute my post, saying that
> >>such is not currently available, please give an
> >>example and explain how it takes 3-phase input
> >>and is not damaged by overvoltage.�  In other
> >>words, please stick to the topic and do not
> >>diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > If this simple idea is too complicated for
> >>anyone to even understand what I am talking
> >>about, that may explain why none are available.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > :)
> >>  > > Doug S.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > --- In
> >><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>"James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �*�WindyBoy�*� ?
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > > From: Doug
> >>  > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
> >>  > > > To:
> >><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>  > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? - stone
age
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > >�
> >>  > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of
> >>green green green, and tried to participate.
> >>Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air
> >>pollution - I've heard all the reasons...
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google,
> >>BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to the
> >>pronouncements of (future) progress...
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
> >>  > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and
> >>happy-talk, the most advanced country on Earth,
> >>has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug
> >>a windmill into and have it work.
> >>  > > > Yup that sounds about right.
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
> >>  > > > I guess, just like we'll never see
> >>another man on the moon, we'll never have a
> >>grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all
> >>those green agencies are BUSY! Busy planning
> >>the next conference that will take a few more
> >>million gallons of oil to get everyone there.
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > > What, you say you have a windmill and
> >>want to plug it into the grid? Oh that's
> >>nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > >
> >>  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>  > > >
> >>  > >
> >>  >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  ------------------------------------
> >>
> >>  ==========================================================
> >>  THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> >>  ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>  . Please feel free to send your input to:
> >>  � 
<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>  . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
> >>  �
>
>><mailto:small-wind-home-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home-subscribe@\
yahoogroups.com
> >>  . To view previous messages from the list,
> >>  �  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
> >>  �  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
> >  > �  (and read it on the Web), go to
> >>  �
>
>><http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.yahoogroups.com/li\
st/small-wind-home
> >>.�
> >>  . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
> >>  �
> >><http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
> >>.
> >>
> >>  ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>  Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Actually, if the inverter or charge controller has the 3-phase rectifier built
into it so that it takes the wild AC input, it is ~fairly~ simple and ~fairly~
inexpensive for the inverter to protect itself...  That is, as long as it's
power rating isn't too large (eg. <= 10 kW or so)   This, I think would be
similar in operation to Doug's Windy Girl.

But that won't necessarily protect the wind turbine if it cannot stand being
shorted out in higher winds.

AC side is easier because of the separation of the short from the DC side of the
inverter/controller.

boB





--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Michel Stievenart
<michel.stievenart@...> wrote:
>
> Doug (and All),
>
> You are a dynamic and creative man.
> A few years ago I started the design of a MPPT controller for the small wind
world with a few key concepts in mind.
> Among them were the "building blocks" , DIY, kits, easy spare parts supplying,
easy understanding, documentation, education, in order to allow poor and remote
people to adapt the gear and fix troubles themselves.
> It was a kind of synergy with Hugh Piggott's work (He were consulted)
> I couldn't complete my design because it was time consuming and the price were
growing too much to achieve a good reliability with a large safety margin versus
Hugh's specifications.
> However the thing is not impossible to make.
> If we look at the RC model world, there are plenty of small devices, engines,
controllers, parts, materials, which are available and affordable.
>
> This forum list is, with some others, a good place to build the ideas of these
lacking blocks.
>
> I invite everyone here to submit their own preliminary set of design
specifications.
>
> Of course they will be very different but writing is often a good way to
clarify fuzzy ideas.
>
> May be one day soon, someone will be able to use this data, federate and
propose practical achievements.
>
> Michel
>
>
> De : small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
De la part de Doug
> Envoy� : dimanche 29 juillet 2012 21:44
> � : small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks
>
> ._,___
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi everyone,

I've been on this list for about a million years but don't do much (any)
posting.

I'm going to upgrade my almost dead system - its this over getting "real" power
but that is also tricker than it sounds.

I currently have a Xantrex pro sine 1800W inverter 12V in 110V out inverter.

The problem is 1) I'd like to move to a higher voltage system (48V would be
great) and 2) I'm in Ireland and we actually use 220V not 110V (mind you it's
amazing how much stuff actually is 100-220V compatible - all computer stuff
anyway).

I have a Xantrex C60 charge controller - this is good because its 12 / 24 / 48 V
switchable with jumpers but it looks like I can't do anything with the inverter
other than put it aside or try to sell it.

Does anyone know of anyone out there doing trade-ins on inverters?

thanks,

Derek



--
Derek Conniffe
Sent with Sparrow (http://www.sparrowmailapp.com/?sig)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Derek,

Try Irish PV & Wind Ltd ; County Cork.

I own a Studer XTM 4000-48 ; a bit expensive (Swiss made) but a gem : quiet,
efficient, outstanding overload capabilities...

Michel
From Lyon
France

De : small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Derek Conniffe
Envoy� : mercredi 1 ao�t 2012 23:17
� : small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [s-w-h] Xantrex Prosine Inverter - have to upgrade? can I trade it?



Hi everyone,

I've been on this list for about a million years but don't do much (any)
posting.

I'm going to upgrade my almost dead system - its this over getting "real" power
but that is also tricker than it sounds.

I currently have a Xantrex pro sine 1800W inverter 12V in 110V out inverter.

The problem is 1) I'd like to move to a higher voltage system (48V would be
great) and 2) I'm in Ireland and we actually use 220V not 110V (mind you it's
amazing how much stuff actually is 100-220V compatible - all computer stuff
anyway).

I have a Xantrex C60 charge controller - this is good because its 12 / 24 / 48 V
switchable with jumpers but it looks like I can't do anything with the inverter
other than put it aside or try to sell it.

Does anyone know of anyone out there doing trade-ins on inverters?

thanks,

Derek

--
Derek Conniffe
Sent with Sparrow (http://www.sparrowmailapp.com/?sig)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah I don't see that it needs to be complicated at all to rectify the wild AC,
and let the turbine go (rather than brake it) if the voltage gets too high. 
Seems pretty basic to me.  Braking the turbine is good - it protects the
inverter, but sometimes the wind is too strong to stop the turbine, so then the
inverter damages the turbine.


--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "boB G" <bob@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Actually, if the inverter or charge controller has the 3-phase rectifier built
into it so that it takes the wild AC input, it is ~fairly~ simple and ~fairly~
inexpensive for the inverter to protect itself...  That is, as long as it's
power rating isn't too large (eg. <= 10 kW or so)   This, I think would be
similar in operation to Doug's Windy Girl.
>
> But that won't necessarily protect the wind turbine if it cannot stand being
shorted out in higher winds.
>
> AC side is easier because of the separation of the short from the DC side of
the inverter/controller.
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Michel Stievenart <michel.stievenart@>
wrote:
> >
> > Doug (and All),
> >
> > You are a dynamic and creative man.
> > A few years ago I started the design of a MPPT controller for the small wind
world with a few key concepts in mind.
> > Among them were the "building blocks" , DIY, kits, easy spare parts
supplying, easy understanding, documentation, education, in order to allow poor
and remote people to adapt the gear and fix troubles themselves.
> > It was a kind of synergy with Hugh Piggott's work (He were consulted)
> > I couldn't complete my design because it was time consuming and the price
were growing too much to achieve a good reliability with a large safety margin
versus Hugh's specifications.
> > However the thing is not impossible to make.
> > If we look at the RC model world, there are plenty of small devices,
engines, controllers, parts, materials, which are available and affordable.
> >
> > This forum list is, with some others, a good place to build the ideas of
these lacking blocks.
> >
> > I invite everyone here to submit their own preliminary set of design
specifications.
> >
> > Of course they will be very different but writing is often a good way to
clarify fuzzy ideas.
> >
> > May be one day soon, someone will be able to use this data, federate and
propose practical achievements.
> >
> > Michel
> >
> >
> > De : small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Doug
> > Envoy� : dimanche 29 juillet 2012 21:44
> > � : small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks
> >
> > ._,___
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Hi Doug,

I think that when products don't develop and
succeed, it's for reasons. Usually it's because
there isn't enough of a market at the price. We
work and play in a small, niche industry. There
isn't gobs of money to throw around.

As I tried to say, I have no problem with you
having a wish list. It's when you cross the line
to "someone should be doing this for me/us" that
you lose me. I encourage you to go after your
wish list -- if you build it, maybe they will
come. Everyone else has his/her own wish list
too. The marketplace decides who gets their
wishes, and at what price.

I note that there are plenty of people with a
"grid-tie wind system that works" now, even if
they don't fit into your wish list. Personally,
I'd rather spend more time making things work,
and less time dreaming about what could be.

Regards,

Ian


>
>
>Ian:
>I'm posting here what I see as the obvious
>characteristics a grid-tie inverter for wind
>turbines should have, starting with the fact
>that it should take a common home-size wind
>turbine as input and ending with the fact that
>it should be able to protect itself.
>
>I've stated that this would enable easier
>development of reliable complete systems, as
>long as the turbine was also capable of
>protecting itself.
>
>I've cited as evidence that the one consistently
>reliable brand in common use, the Bergey 10kW
>system, uses such an inverter.
>
>I've also stated that I have such an inverter
>here, it works great, and that the company is
>going out of business.
>
>I can afford anything. I'm worried about system cost for people on a budget.
>
>"We" don't "decide" what businesses do, unless
>we own the business. On the other hand, this
>internet is supposed to allow us to discuss
>things like what an inverter for wind turbines
>would be like and that we would like to see one.
>
>maybe someone from, say, NREL or the NWTC or the
>SWCC will read this, decide it makes sense, and
>in some conversation with an inverter company,
>let them know that nobody is really producing an
>inverter for wind energy at all, tell them the
>simple added features it would neeed to have,
>and maybe we could see such an inverter offered
>as a result.
>
>The process is communication and feedback.
>
>I guess the most mystifying part is why I have
>to bring this up after so many years of
>happy-talk about green energy. And of course
>those with too much t9ime on their hands has to
>come out of the woodwork to try and make a
>simple observation of a fact into some sort of
>argument, or an excuse to promote their pet
>theory.
>
>I guess your point is "Why should anyone care
>what anyone thinks?" or "Why should we
>communicate?" or "Why would you ever suggest an
>improvement" or "Why would you, after 10 years
>of beating your head against the wall in small
>wind, identify a major obstacle and post it on
>the web?"
>Whatever your point is, I don't see it. I want
>more inverters that I can plug my
>now-trouble-free wind turbines into and have
>them work, OK?
>I'm relating my experience and where that has
>led in my thoughts on what is needed in this
>industry.
>It's not just for me, it's for everyone who
>wants a grid-tie wind system that works.
>
>Take it for what it's worth.
>
>--- In
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Hi Doug,
>>
>>  I'm not sure why "we" get to decide what businesses should do.
>>
>>  It seems to me that if a business can design an
>>  inverter that pleases you, you will buy it
>>  (though I suspect that you may decide you can't
>>  afford it ;-) ).
>>
>>  Meanwhile, each business is making its own
>>  decisions about what products it can profitably
>>  design and sell.
>>
>>  I don't think any inverter manufacturer "asks" us
>>  to do anything, unless it's to read the specs on
>>  the piece of gear we voluntarily pay for, and
>>  decide whether it's worth it to us. I suppose
>>  they would also like us to understand its
>>  limitations and not kill it and then blame them.
>  >
>>  Your house wire/light bulb example seems to
>>  confirm my view -- the wire manufacturer produces
>>  wire with certain ratings, and if you use it in a
>>  way it wasn't designed for, it could fail.
>>
>>  I'm with you when you suggest or even list what
>>  qualities _you would like_ in an inverter. You
>>  lose me when you seem to assume that there is
>>  some obligation for someone else to design
>>  something that you like. If there's enough demand
>>  for a product, and someone can make it
>>  profitably, it may happen. If very few people
>>  want it, and aren't willing to pay for it amply,
>>  it probably won't happen.
>>
>>  Best,
>>
>>  Ian
>>
>>  At 7:44 PM +0000 7/29/12, Doug wrote:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Mike:
>>  >I didn't even mention standardization. That's
>>  >not what I meant by "building blocks". Lest my
>>  >point be lost, I said I think if each component
>>  >can protect itself under all conditions, then
>>  >they can be combined into a system that protects
>>  >itself under all conditions.
>>  >
>>  >I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
>>  >I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine
>>  >designer is asked to protect the inverter
>>  >because the inverters have no protection from
>>  >the most common problem a turbine is likely to
>>  >throw at them, either before being loaded down
>>  >during initialization, or during a storm,
>>  >especially if the grid goes down.
>>  >
>>  >The reason is because inverters were designed
>>  >for solar, as illustrated by the fact that they
>>  >cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the
>>  >average turbine.
>>  >
>>  >Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask
>>  >the turbine manufacturer to handle. Their
>>  >inverters are simply not true wind turbine
>>  >inverters. Nobody makes a true wind turbine
>>  >inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to
>>  >think it was just a huge problem for me, but I
>>  >see it is really a huge problem for the entire
>>  >industry and a main reason why this industry is
>>  >stuck in neutral, or maybe first gear.
>>  >
>>  >Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb
>>  >to provide protection for the house wiring. The
>>  >house wiring can protect itself. If any
>>  >appliance has a short circuit, you don't have to
>>  >send your house back to the manufacturer for
>>  >rewiring, because someone thought it through,
>>  >and decided the house had to protect itself.
>>  >They included circuit-breakers or fuses to
>>  >properly protect the house wiring.
>>  >
>>  >The operative word is not "standardization" of
>>  >components, in the sense of swapping parts
>>  >between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in
>>  >the sense that the bozo specifying capacitors
>>  >that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
>>  >error, should then realize that he needs to
>>  >include a way to protect that component from
>>  >that condition.
>>  >
>>  >It's nice to tell the turbine designer to
>>  >include a rectifier because your inverter is
>>  >made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage
>>  >protection, because the sun never gets twice as
>>  >bright, but the explanation why is always the
>>  >same: The inverter was designed for solar and
>>  >they just don't care about wind enough to do
>>  >anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid
>>  >"wind turbine interface box" and a "dump load"
>>  >that doubles your cost, takes twice the space,
>>  >and turns red-hot when it gets windy.
>>  >
>>  >So the turbine person is on their own, trying to
>>  >do the job of the inverter designer.
>>  >
>>  >The standardization of car parts fitting other
>>  >cars is there to a large extent anyway - you can
>>  >put the same fender or Delco alternator on
>>  >either your Camaro, or your Firebird, but
>>  >electrical parts can fit together between brands
>>  >even more easily, because of standardized wire
>>  >sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
>>  >intermediary is electricity, which is generic
>>  >and brand-neutral.
>>  >
>>  >Thanks for writing.
>>  >Doug Selsam
>> 
><<http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com><http://www.selsam.com>http://www\
.selsam.com
>>  >
>>  >--- In
>> 
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups\
.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >Michael Klemen <wind4energy@> wrote:
>  > >>
>>  >> Doug,
>>  >>
>>  >> Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
>>  >> because you do.� But if we take another industry and compare it to
>>  >> wind, can it provide valuable clues?� Take the automotive industry.
>>  >> They have been building cars 100 years.� You would think they have
>>  >> it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
>>  >> are easy to piece together and easy to fix.� Alas, the manufacturers
>>  >> do not standardize much, if at all!� Are
>>there standard size alternators
>>  >>
>>  >> withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
>>  >> auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?� Can you
>>  >> take your pick of X number of standard
>>bearings?� For some reason, things
>>  >> that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a standard
>>  >> configuration.� Imagine how nice it would
>>be to go to the auto parts store,
>>  >> and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
>>  >> you need!� Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
>>  >> this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
>>  >>
>>  >> perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
>>  >>
>>  >> as to why this doesn't happen?� Standardization comes at a cost.
>>  >> What is that cost?� Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
>>  >>
>>  >> manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
>>  >> shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
>>  >> bullet proof for all turbines.� It's that
>>  >>cost savings, likely, that prevents
>>  >> standardization.� Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
>>  >>
>>  >> Mike
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> ________________________________
>>  >> From: Doug <dougselsam@>
>>  >> To:
>> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>>  >> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
>>  >> Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for
>>wind turbines? building blocks
>>  >>
>>  >> Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
>>  >> Any developed art has building blocks that can
>>  >>be combined into a system.� Usually each
>>  >>building block is self-sufficient, and capable
>>  >>of handling its own basic function, so one can
>>  >>then combine components.
>>  >> Not so in small wind.
>>  >>
>>  >> From the very beginning, I noticed that
>>  >>research grants and certifying agencies wanted
>>  >>to see "complete systems", including all
>>  >>electronics, the tower, all shut-off switches,
>>  >>cables, every single detail of a complete
>>  >>system, specified by the turbine developer or
>>  >>researcher.
>>  >>
>>  >> I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a
>>  >>more powerful turbine, no agency is capable of
>>  >>simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?�
>>  >>I imagined agencies like NREL having a bunch of
>>  >>towers with wiring and inverters, and if you
>>  >>had an interesting turbine they'd just call you
>>  >>up and say: "Hey can you bring one of those
>>  >>here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
>>  >>
>>  >> But no, they could only test "a complete
>>  >>system".� It seemed like there was "something
>>  >>wrong with this picture", like having to design
>>  >>a complete house just to test an air
>>  >>conditioner.
>>  >>
>>  >> The thing that really struck me was the number
>>  >>of parties capable, or willing, to develop one
>>  >>building-block, say a turbine that was capable
>>  >>of protecting itself, was much higher than the
>>  >>number of parties capable of developing an
>>  >>entire system.
>>  >>
>>  >> For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning
>>  >>about airfoils, propellers and bearings, power
>>  >>and swept area, spinning and twirling,
>>  >>pirouetting and furling, horsepower and watts,
>>  >>RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine
>>  >>designer has to know.
>>  >>
>>  >> But I found that nobody could or would test
>>  >>just a turbine.� They only wanted to test a
>>  >>complete system including tower and all cabling
>>  >>and electronics including the inverter.
>>  >>
>>  >> Lets assume someone had developed a 100%
>>  >>foolproof turbine that was quiet, could never
>  > >>burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.�
>>  >>Nobody would have been willing to test it,
>>  >>certify it, none of that.� Nope.� You had to
>>  >>have "a complete system".
>>  > >
>>  >> At first it seemed like some hard news, but
>>  >>perhaps reasonable.� But the real problem
>>  >>slowly dawned on me:� No inverter was capable
>>  >>of simply protecting itself.� No inverter was
>>  >>"turbine-ready".� A self-sufficient inverter
>>  >>for a wind turbine simply did not exist.� None
>>  >>of the inverter companies seemed to care or
>>  >>"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on
>>  >>boxes with dump loads etc. were expensive
>>  >>workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box
>>  >>and a wall full of electronics to allow you to
>>  >>screw in a light bulb.� Ridiculous.
>>  >>
>>  >> For years now I've been dabbling in the field
>>  >>of electronics, to try and create more
>>  >>affordable band-aids than the inverter
>>  >>companies were offering, but that takes us back
>>  >>to the basic affordability and complexity of a
>>  >>system.�
>>  >>
>>  >> To me, by the time every new aspect or
>>  >>consideration means another $1000 add-on, few
>>  >>customers would be interested in a financially
>>  >>top-heavy Rube Goldberg agglomeration of
>>  >>failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot
>>  >>every time the wind is strong.
>>  >>
>>  >> Additionally, asking anyone developing a
>>  >>turbine to out-think hundreds of trained
>>  >>electrical engineers just to get a turbine
>>  >>tested is not realistic.� No, the answer is
>>  >>for each component to take care of itself, then
>>  >>they can be combined.� If a turbine can
>>  >>protect itself under any conditions, and an
>>  >>inverter can protect itself under any
>>  >>conditions, then you can combine them and have
>>  >>a system that will protect itself under any
>>  >>conditions.
>>  >>
>>  >> Instead, we ask people developing turbines to
>>  >>make up for the failure of the inverter
>>  >>designers.� We tell the turbine developers:
>>  >>You must supersede highly-talented electronic
>>  >>and electrical engineers because they simply
>>  >>cannot be expected to do their job - YOU must
>>  >>do their job, or you are just not good enough,
>>  >>your turbine is just not good enough, and the
>>  >>green energy movement will stop here.� Stuck
>>  >>in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying
>>  >>tickets to the next trade-show to notice.
>>  >>
>>  >> Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
>>  >>
>>  >> Hey here's a clue:
>>  >> If we had inverters that could handle
>>  >>themselves, anyone could develop a turbine and
>>  >>connect it, and maybe this art would not be
>>  >>still stuck in the same exact place it was 10
>>  >>years ago.
>>  >>
>>  >> :)
>>  >> Doug Selsam
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> --- In
>> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >>"boB G" <bob@> wrote:
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> > Doug is right on here, however, there are
>>  >>add-ons for some of these inverters to do what
>>  >>his Windy Girl does.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > Some call it a clamp, some call it a
>>  >>limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the voltage
>>  >>like audio signals get clipped)
>>  >> >
>>  >> > Did you know that SMA actually makes a
>>  >>voltage limiter for their Windy Boy� ??� I
>>  >>can't remember exactly what they call it but am
>>  >>surprised that I don't here it talked about
>>  >>more.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > I think that� Power One makes a voltage
>>  >>limiter for the Aurora grid tie inverter.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that
>>  >>consists of a long series of diodes that was
>>  >>made for their E110 (?) that was being used
>>  >>with Outback MX60s for a while.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > As far as I have found, a controllable
>>  >>limiter is best, since it can reduce RPMs when
>>  >>the grid goes away or the batteries are full or
>>  >>the controller or inverter is at its maximum
>>  >>rated output power.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a
>>  >>built in Clipper but it makes sense that this
>>  >>would be an external add on with the rectifiers
>>  >>built in as well.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > boB
>>  >> >
>  > >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> > --- In
>> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >>"Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and
>>  >>repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.� I've sold a few of
>>  >>these, and own a couple more. We can program a
>>  >>SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.� The unit is ruined
>>  >>if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.�
>>  >>And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind
>>  >>turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.� I think I'm
>>  >>just repeating myself here, implying people are
>>  >>replying without reading my original post.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > Thanks for again making my point, that
>>  >>there is no grid-tie inverter available that
>>  >>you can plug a wind turbine into and have it
>>  >>just work.
>>  > > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example
>>  >of a grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
>>  >turbine into and have it work. (nice try
>>  >though...)
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL -
>>  >>electronics that will protect your WindyBOY
>>  >>inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out
>>  >>your turbine by braking it.� I will keep
>>  >>working on it.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I
>>  >>don't think either is a guarantee you won't
>>  >>seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to
>>  >>ruin the inverter.� I wouldn't I'd bet your
>>  >>inverter on the idea that no gust combined with
>>  >>a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could
>>  >>ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
>>  >>moment.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > All it takes is a second of high voltage
>>  >>to smoke the input capacitors, as they have a
>>  >>very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
>>  >>---zap--- - you are sending out your entire
>>  >>inverter for repairs.� Just the shipping back
>>  >>and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the
>>  >>repair cost.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a
>>  >>mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor selling
>>  >>battery-charging inverters that use a dump
>>  >>load, in response to the topic of a grid-tie
>>  >>inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
>>  >>understanding.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
>>  >> > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine
>>that can take a Turbine as Input"
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > If you want to refute my post, saying that
>>  >>such is not currently available, please give an
>>  >>example and explain how it takes 3-phase input
>>  >>and is not damaged by overvoltage.� In other
>>  >>words, please stick to the topic and do not
>>  >>diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > If this simple idea is too complicated for
>>  >>anyone to even understand what I am talking
>>  >>about, that may explain why none are available.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > :)
>>  >> > > Doug S.
>>  >> > >
>>  >> > > --- In
>> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >>"James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �*�WindyBoy�*� ?
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > From: Doug
>>  >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
>>  >> > > > To:
>> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>>  >> > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie
>>Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > >�
>>  >> > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of
>>  >>green green green, and tried to participate.
>>  >>Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air
>>  >>pollution - I've heard all the reasons...
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google,
>>  >>BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to the
>>  >>pronouncements of (future) progress...
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and conventions...
>>  >> > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and
>>  >>happy-talk, the most advanced country on Earth,
>>  >>has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug
>>  >>a windmill into and have it work.
>>  >> > > > Yup that sounds about right.
>>  >> > > >
>  > >> > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
>>  >> > > > I guess, just like we'll never see
>>  >>another man on the moon, we'll never have a
>>  >>grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all
>>  >>those green agencies are BUSY! Busy planning
>>  >>the next conference that will take a few more
>>  >>million gallons of oil to get everyone there.
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > What, you say you have a windmill and
>>  >>want to plug it into the grid? Oh that's
>>  >>nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>  >> > > >
>>  >> > >
>>  >> >
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> ------------------------------------
>>  >>
>>  >> ==========================================================
>>  >> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
>>  >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> . Please feel free to send your input to:
>>  >> �
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>>  >> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
>>  >> �
>> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home-su\
bscribe%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>  >> . To view previous messages from the list,
>>  >> � subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
>>  >> � or stop receiving the list by e-mail
>>  > > � (and read it on the Web), go to
>>  >> �
>> 
>><<http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.yahoogroups.com/l\
ist/small-wind-home><http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.\
yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home
>>  >>.�
>>  >> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
>>  >> �
>> 
>><<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>\
<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
>>  >>.
>>  >>
>>  >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>
>>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK Ian.  I, like you, listen to a ton of happy-talk about "let's all get behind
green energy".  "Green Jobs" are supposed to be saving our entire economy.  I
mean, that IS what they say, isn't it?  They DO say green energy is the most
important thing in the world, specifically, the key to our future, right?  We
see millions, if not BILLIONS of dollars being thrown around, willy-nilly, at
"green" companies that everyone knows are in the process in failing (Solyndra
etc.).  How much money has been given to Tesla?  Don't they need green
electricty to drag all those heavy, expensive batteries around?

I have a friend here who charges his Chevy Volt using his Bergey wind turbine
that does not use a dump load.  I wonder if Chevy Volt has a dump load?  I
wonder if Chevy Volt will even survive as a product, or if it is just one more
government "throw money at green energy" program that fizzles when the funding
dries up?

Meanwhile, I live in perhaps the highest concentration of homes powered by their
own wind turbines in the world - a clear poster-child of a green-energy future,
that most people don't know exists.  Do you think President Obama even knows
about Oak Hills, California?  That we have almost 100% solar availability at
3600 feet elevation? (almost no clouds ever)  That you drive around and see
turbine after turbine after turbine, after turbine, all spinning, all the time? 
That we get 30 mph winds almost every day?

I guess what you mean is that all this green energy talk is just a lot of hot
air - that nobody really means anything they say - that nobody cares if small
wind takes hold.  Is that it?  Your point is that green energy is handed to us
as being the key to our future, but that is all bullshit because is it is just a
small niche industry that really doesn't matter to anyone?  Why don't you get
out of it since you prefer solar?  Why even participate if you don't care if it
advances. Are you in charge of helping to wipe it out before it really gets
started?

For people who are INTO wind energy, who are SERIOUS about it, the components we
use MATTER.  We don't think it is some trivial thing not worth mentioning when
we find the key to advancing the small wind industry, and having even ONE
inverter on the market that simply WORKS with any standard wind turbine is a key
factor to allow small wind to advance.

As I drive around this clean and green poster-child of a wind-and-solar-powered
community, perhaps the greenest region in the world, I see well over a hundred
wind turbines spinning.  Most of those are Bergey 10 kW systems.  One or two are
Skystreams.  None of these turbines uses a dump load.  My experimental turbine
outside right now does not use a dump load.  It has an inverter designed for
wind turbines.  I can take you around and show you over 100 working systems,
that are always spinning, and none has a dump load.

Or we can travel out a bit further and see a few Chinese turbines that DO have a
dump load, that are sometimes working, other times sitting with missing blades,
etc.  Or we can find one or two old Whisper 175 installations using old xantrex
inverters that employ a dump load and see most not working, and often the
problem is the FET's that trigger the diump load having burned out.

So is your point that small wind is not really part of any clean and green
future?  Or that the all the green energy funding should be wasted instead of
spent on good causes like even HAVING an inverter than can even take a wind
turbine as input?

Obviously, the market has not sufficiently supported the company that went out
of business.  Obviously nobody saw it as important that the manufacturer be
supported by some bailout or loan guarantee.  Then again, as editor of Home
Power Magazine, did you ever do an article on DTI and let the public know that
they produced an inverter that could handle a wind turbine as input?  Or did you
ever do an article explaining how wind energy systems that are reliable seldom
include a dump load while the ones that break down all the time use dump loads?

To simply state that I have a great inverter here that works well and I would
like to see more like it, and have people like you try and find a way to argue
with it, just makes me realize once again that we in this green energy field are
running an uphill battle, with the people who should be promoti8ng wind energy
trying to slow it down, suggesting that proposing advances, or even identifying
already-achieved advances, and suggesting that we need more of what works, is
somehow out of line.

Such a negative attitude toward progress, toward appropriate components, and
identifying what actually works, helps to drag things down, making developing
green energy like trying to run a marathon through quicksand.  Green energy
development is supposed to be a sprint with cheering and people pushing it
along, not a an uphill quicksand crawl pushing the people who are supposed to be
helping out of the way as they try to hold it back.

Instead of fighting progress, why not get on board and help me promote progress?
Then maybe small wind could be relevant.  Yeah, it;ls a niche industry.  Why? 
No suitable inverter.  Its that simple.  You are describing the resulting
symptom of small wind being a niche, as a reason to not implement the cure,
which is an inverter made for small wind.

No suitable inverter => niche industry... get it?

Just imagine, all those wind energy innovators, having an inverter that could
just take their output without asking the turbine developer to do the inverter
developer's job!  How much more likely would it be that any turbine developer
could be successful?

I think if the people in charge want to peg our future on "clean-and-green",
there ought to be a few dollars available to develop such an inverter, or just
copy the ones that already exist.

And mind you, this is not that complicated:  The old Xantrex inverters used for
my older Bergey 10 kW system here has no dump load either.  They also had a way
to just let the turbine go.  And the Skystream has no dump load either.  I guess
the publicly-funded eggheads who helped design that system also thought an
inverter that could handle a wind turbine was in order.

Hey Ian, how about if your house wiring can't take a light bulb?  And you are
asked to provide protection for the whole wiring system to screw in a light
bulb?  Good idea huh?

By the way, to Mike Klemen, although your reply regarding standardization of
parts between brands was off-topic, (topic: inverters that can take 3-phase
input and reject overvoltage), nevertheless, the other day my girlfriend's Dodge
PT cruiser needed a brake-light bulb.  We got the 2-pack.  When the front
blinker on my commercial Chevy Express 3500 van went out, I used the other bulb
from the the 2-pack, since both vehicles, different brands, different types,
made on opposite sides of the world, took the same exact part.  So besides being
off-topic, your post was also factually disprovable.

OK gotta run.  I hope I have time to do anything to move small-wind forward
today.  Geez I think I just wasted an hour on deaf ears.  Hopefully not 100%
deaf ears.

:)
Doug Selsam


--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I think that when products don't develop and
> succeed, it's for reasons. Usually it's because
> there isn't enough of a market at the price. We
> work and play in a small, niche industry. There
> isn't gobs of money to throw around.
>
> As I tried to say, I have no problem with you
> having a wish list. It's when you cross the line
> to "someone should be doing this for me/us" that
> you lose me. I encourage you to go after your
> wish list -- if you build it, maybe they will
> come. Everyone else has his/her own wish list
> too. The marketplace decides who gets their
> wishes, and at what price.
>
> I note that there are plenty of people with a
> "grid-tie wind system that works" now, even if
> they don't fit into your wish list. Personally,
> I'd rather spend more time making things work,
> and less time dreaming about what could be.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
>
> >
> >
> >Ian:
> >I'm posting here what I see as the obvious
> >characteristics a grid-tie inverter for wind
> >turbines should have, starting with the fact
> >that it should take a common home-size wind
> >turbine as input and ending with the fact that
> >it should be able to protect itself.
> >
> >I've stated that this would enable easier
> >development of reliable complete systems, as
> >long as the turbine was also capable of
> >protecting itself.
> >
> >I've cited as evidence that the one consistently
> >reliable brand in common use, the Bergey 10kW
> >system, uses such an inverter.
> >
> >I've also stated that I have such an inverter
> >here, it works great, and that the company is
> >going out of business.
> >
> >I can afford anything. I'm worried about system cost for people on a budget.
> >
> >"We" don't "decide" what businesses do, unless
> >we own the business. On the other hand, this
> >internet is supposed to allow us to discuss
> >things like what an inverter for wind turbines
> >would be like and that we would like to see one.
> >
> >maybe someone from, say, NREL or the NWTC or the
> >SWCC will read this, decide it makes sense, and
> >in some conversation with an inverter company,
> >let them know that nobody is really producing an
> >inverter for wind energy at all, tell them the
> >simple added features it would neeed to have,
> >and maybe we could see such an inverter offered
> >as a result.
> >
> >The process is communication and feedback.
> >
> >I guess the most mystifying part is why I have
> >to bring this up after so many years of
> >happy-talk about green energy. And of course
> >those with too much t9ime on their hands has to
> >come out of the woodwork to try and make a
> >simple observation of a fact into some sort of
> >argument, or an excuse to promote their pet
> >theory.
> >
> >I guess your point is "Why should anyone care
> >what anyone thinks?" or "Why should we
> >communicate?" or "Why would you ever suggest an
> >improvement" or "Why would you, after 10 years
> >of beating your head against the wall in small
> >wind, identify a major obstacle and post it on
> >the web?"
> >Whatever your point is, I don't see it. I want
> >more inverters that I can plug my
> >now-trouble-free wind turbines into and have
> >them work, OK?
> >I'm relating my experience and where that has
> >led in my thoughts on what is needed in this
> >industry.
> >It's not just for me, it's for everyone who
> >wants a grid-tie wind system that works.
> >
> >Take it for what it's worth.
> >
> >--- In
> ><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>  Hi Doug,
> >>
> >>  I'm not sure why "we" get to decide what businesses should do.
> >>
> >>  It seems to me that if a business can design an
> >>  inverter that pleases you, you will buy it
> >>  (though I suspect that you may decide you can't
> >>  afford it ;-) ).
> >>
> >>  Meanwhile, each business is making its own
> >>  decisions about what products it can profitably
> >>  design and sell.
> >>
> >>  I don't think any inverter manufacturer "asks" us
> >>  to do anything, unless it's to read the specs on
> >>  the piece of gear we voluntarily pay for, and
> >>  decide whether it's worth it to us. I suppose
> >>  they would also like us to understand its
> >>  limitations and not kill it and then blame them.
> >  >
> >>  Your house wire/light bulb example seems to
> >>  confirm my view -- the wire manufacturer produces
> >>  wire with certain ratings, and if you use it in a
> >>  way it wasn't designed for, it could fail.
> >>
> >>  I'm with you when you suggest or even list what
> >>  qualities _you would like_ in an inverter. You
> >>  lose me when you seem to assume that there is
> >>  some obligation for someone else to design
> >>  something that you like. If there's enough demand
> >>  for a product, and someone can make it
> >>  profitably, it may happen. If very few people
> >>  want it, and aren't willing to pay for it amply,
> >>  it probably won't happen.
> >>
> >>  Best,
> >>
> >>  Ian
> >>
> >>  At 7:44 PM +0000 7/29/12, Doug wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >Mike:
> >>  >I didn't even mention standardization. That's
> >>  >not what I meant by "building blocks". Lest my
> >>  >point be lost, I said I think if each component
> >>  >can protect itself under all conditions, then
> >>  >they can be combined into a system that protects
> >>  >itself under all conditions.
> >>  >
> >>  >I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
> >>  >I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine
> >>  >designer is asked to protect the inverter
> >>  >because the inverters have no protection from
> >>  >the most common problem a turbine is likely to
> >>  >throw at them, either before being loaded down
> >>  >during initialization, or during a storm,
> >>  >especially if the grid goes down.
> >>  >
> >>  >The reason is because inverters were designed
> >>  >for solar, as illustrated by the fact that they
> >>  >cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the
> >>  >average turbine.
> >>  >
> >>  >Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask
> >>  >the turbine manufacturer to handle. Their
> >>  >inverters are simply not true wind turbine
> >>  >inverters. Nobody makes a true wind turbine
> >>  >inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to
> >>  >think it was just a huge problem for me, but I
> >>  >see it is really a huge problem for the entire
> >>  >industry and a main reason why this industry is
> >>  >stuck in neutral, or maybe first gear.
> >>  >
> >>  >Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb
> >>  >to provide protection for the house wiring. The
> >>  >house wiring can protect itself. If any
> >>  >appliance has a short circuit, you don't have to
> >>  >send your house back to the manufacturer for
> >>  >rewiring, because someone thought it through,
> >>  >and decided the house had to protect itself.
> >>  >They included circuit-breakers or fuses to
> >>  >properly protect the house wiring.
> >>  >
> >>  >The operative word is not "standardization" of
> >>  >components, in the sense of swapping parts
> >>  >between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in
> >>  >the sense that the bozo specifying capacitors
> >>  >that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
> >>  >error, should then realize that he needs to
> >>  >include a way to protect that component from
> >>  >that condition.
> >>  >
> >>  >It's nice to tell the turbine designer to
> >>  >include a rectifier because your inverter is
> >>  >made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage
> >>  >protection, because the sun never gets twice as
> >>  >bright, but the explanation why is always the
> >>  >same: The inverter was designed for solar and
> >>  >they just don't care about wind enough to do
> >>  >anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid
> >>  >"wind turbine interface box" and a "dump load"
> >>  >that doubles your cost, takes twice the space,
> >>  >and turns red-hot when it gets windy.
> >>  >
> >>  >So the turbine person is on their own, trying to
> >>  >do the job of the inverter designer.
> >>  >
> >>  >The standardization of car parts fitting other
> >>  >cars is there to a large extent anyway - you can
> >>  >put the same fender or Delco alternator on
> >>  >either your Camaro, or your Firebird, but
> >>  >electrical parts can fit together between brands
> >>  >even more easily, because of standardized wire
> >>  >sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
> >>  >intermediary is electricity, which is generic
> >>  >and brand-neutral.
> >>  >
> >>  >Thanks for writing.
> >>  >Doug Selsam
> >> 
><<http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com><http://www.selsam.com>http://www\
.selsam.com
> >>  >
> >>  >--- In
> >> 
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups\
.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>  >Michael Klemen <wind4energy@> wrote:
> >  > >>
> >>  >> Doug,
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
> >>  >> because you do.� But if we take another industry and compare it to
> >>  >> wind, can it provide valuable clues?� Take the automotive industry.
> >>  >> They have been building cars 100 years.� You would think they have
> >>  >> it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
> >>  >> are easy to piece together and easy to fix.� Alas, the manufacturers
> >>  >> do not standardize much, if at all!� Are
> >>there standard size alternators
> >>  >>
> >>  >> withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
> >>  >> auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?� Can you
> >>  >> take your pick of X number of standard
> >>bearings?� For some reason, things
> >>  >> that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a
standard
> >>  >> configuration.� Imagine how nice it would
> >>be to go to the auto parts store,
> >>  >> and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
> >>  >> you need!� Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
> >>  >> this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
> >>  >>
> >>  >> perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
> >>  >>
> >>  >> as to why this doesn't happen?� Standardization comes at a cost.
> >>  >> What is that cost?� Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
> >>  >>
> >>  >> manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
> >>  >> shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
> >>  >> bullet proof for all turbines.� It's that
> >>  >>cost savings, likely, that prevents
> >>  >> standardization.� Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Mike
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >> ________________________________
> >>  >> From: Doug <dougselsam@>
> >>  >> To:
> >> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>  >> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
> >>  >> Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for
> >>wind turbines? building blocks
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
> >>  >> Any developed art has building blocks that can
> >>  >>be combined into a system.� Usually each
> >>  >>building block is self-sufficient, and capable
> >>  >>of handling its own basic function, so one can
> >>  >>then combine components.
> >>  >> Not so in small wind.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> From the very beginning, I noticed that
> >>  >>research grants and certifying agencies wanted
> >>  >>to see "complete systems", including all
> >>  >>electronics, the tower, all shut-off switches,
> >>  >>cables, every single detail of a complete
> >>  >>system, specified by the turbine developer or
> >>  >>researcher.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a
> >>  >>more powerful turbine, no agency is capable of
> >>  >>simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?�
> >>  >>I imagined agencies like NREL having a bunch of
> >>  >>towers with wiring and inverters, and if you
> >>  >>had an interesting turbine they'd just call you
> >>  >>up and say: "Hey can you bring one of those
> >>  >>here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
> >>  >>
> >>  >> But no, they could only test "a complete
> >>  >>system".� It seemed like there was "something
> >>  >>wrong with this picture", like having to design
> >>  >>a complete house just to test an air
> >>  >>conditioner.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> The thing that really struck me was the number
> >>  >>of parties capable, or willing, to develop one
> >>  >>building-block, say a turbine that was capable
> >>  >>of protecting itself, was much higher than the
> >>  >>number of parties capable of developing an
> >>  >>entire system.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning
> >>  >>about airfoils, propellers and bearings, power
> >>  >>and swept area, spinning and twirling,
> >>  >>pirouetting and furling, horsepower and watts,
> >>  >>RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine
> >>  >>designer has to know.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> But I found that nobody could or would test
> >>  >>just a turbine.� They only wanted to test a
> >>  >>complete system including tower and all cabling
> >>  >>and electronics including the inverter.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Lets assume someone had developed a 100%
> >>  >>foolproof turbine that was quiet, could never
> >  > >>burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.�
> >>  >>Nobody would have been willing to test it,
> >>  >>certify it, none of that.� Nope.� You had to
> >>  >>have "a complete system".
> >>  > >
> >>  >> At first it seemed like some hard news, but
> >>  >>perhaps reasonable.� But the real problem
> >>  >>slowly dawned on me:� No inverter was capable
> >>  >>of simply protecting itself.� No inverter was
> >>  >>"turbine-ready".� A self-sufficient inverter
> >>  >>for a wind turbine simply did not exist.� None
> >>  >>of the inverter companies seemed to care or
> >>  >>"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on
> >>  >>boxes with dump loads etc. were expensive
> >>  >>workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box
> >>  >>and a wall full of electronics to allow you to
> >>  >>screw in a light bulb.� Ridiculous.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> For years now I've been dabbling in the field
> >>  >>of electronics, to try and create more
> >>  >>affordable band-aids than the inverter
> >>  >>companies were offering, but that takes us back
> >>  >>to the basic affordability and complexity of a
> >>  >>system.�
> >>  >>
> >>  >> To me, by the time every new aspect or
> >>  >>consideration means another $1000 add-on, few
> >>  >>customers would be interested in a financially
> >>  >>top-heavy Rube Goldberg agglomeration of
> >>  >>failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot
> >>  >>every time the wind is strong.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Additionally, asking anyone developing a
> >>  >>turbine to out-think hundreds of trained
> >>  >>electrical engineers just to get a turbine
> >>  >>tested is not realistic.� No, the answer is
> >>  >>for each component to take care of itself, then
> >>  >>they can be combined.� If a turbine can
> >>  >>protect itself under any conditions, and an
> >>  >>inverter can protect itself under any
> >>  >>conditions, then you can combine them and have
> >>  >>a system that will protect itself under any
> >>  >>conditions.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Instead, we ask people developing turbines to
> >>  >>make up for the failure of the inverter
> >>  >>designers.� We tell the turbine developers:
> >>  >>You must supersede highly-talented electronic
> >>  >>and electrical engineers because they simply
> >>  >>cannot be expected to do their job - YOU must
> >>  >>do their job, or you are just not good enough,
> >>  >>your turbine is just not good enough, and the
> >>  >>green energy movement will stop here.� Stuck
> >>  >>in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying
> >>  >>tickets to the next trade-show to notice.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Hey here's a clue:
> >>  >> If we had inverters that could handle
> >>  >>themselves, anyone could develop a turbine and
> >>  >>connect it, and maybe this art would not be
> >>  >>still stuck in the same exact place it was 10
> >>  >>years ago.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> :)
> >>  >> Doug Selsam
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >> --- In
> >> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>  >>"boB G" <bob@> wrote:
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > Doug is right on here, however, there are
> >>  >>add-ons for some of these inverters to do what
> >>  >>his Windy Girl does.
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > Some call it a clamp, some call it a
> >>  >>limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the voltage
> >>  >>like audio signals get clipped)
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > Did you know that SMA actually makes a
> >>  >>voltage limiter for their Windy Boy� ??� I
> >>  >>can't remember exactly what they call it but am
> >>  >>surprised that I don't here it talked about
> >>  >>more.
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > I think that� Power One makes a voltage
> >>  >>limiter for the Aurora grid tie inverter.
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that
> >>  >>consists of a long series of diodes that was
> >>  >>made for their E110 (?) that was being used
> >>  >>with Outback MX60s for a while.
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > As far as I have found, a controllable
> >>  >>limiter is best, since it can reduce RPMs when
> >>  >>the grid goes away or the batteries are full or
> >>  >>the controller or inverter is at its maximum
> >>  >>rated output power.
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a
> >>  >>built in Clipper but it makes sense that this
> >>  >>would be an external add on with the rectifiers
> >>  >>built in as well.
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > boB
> >>  >> >
> >  > >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >> > --- In
> >> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>  >>"Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and
> >>  >>repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.� I've sold a few of
> >>  >>these, and own a couple more. We can program a
> >>  >>SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.� The unit is ruined
> >>  >>if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.�
> >>  >>And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind
> >>  >>turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.� I think I'm
> >>  >>just repeating myself here, implying people are
> >>  >>replying without reading my original post.
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > Thanks for again making my point, that
> >>  >>there is no grid-tie inverter available that
> >>  >>you can plug a wind turbine into and have it
> >>  >>just work.
> >>  > > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example
> >>  >of a grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
> >>  >turbine into and have it work. (nice try
> >>  >though...)
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL -
> >>  >>electronics that will protect your WindyBOY
> >>  >>inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out
> >>  >>your turbine by braking it.� I will keep
> >>  >>working on it.
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I
> >>  >>don't think either is a guarantee you won't
> >>  >>seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to
> >>  >>ruin the inverter.� I wouldn't I'd bet your
> >>  >>inverter on the idea that no gust combined with
> >>  >>a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could
> >>  >>ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
> >>  >>moment.
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > All it takes is a second of high voltage
> >>  >>to smoke the input capacitors, as they have a
> >>  >>very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
> >>  >>---zap--- - you are sending out your entire
> >>  >>inverter for repairs.� Just the shipping back
> >>  >>and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the
> >>  >>repair cost.
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a
> >>  >>mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor selling
> >>  >>battery-charging inverters that use a dump
> >>  >>load, in response to the topic of a grid-tie
> >>  >>inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
> >>  >>understanding.
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
> >>  >> > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine
> >>that can take a Turbine as Input"
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > If you want to refute my post, saying that
> >>  >>such is not currently available, please give an
> >>  >>example and explain how it takes 3-phase input
> >>  >>and is not damaged by overvoltage.� In other
> >>  >>words, please stick to the topic and do not
> >>  >>diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > If this simple idea is too complicated for
> >>  >>anyone to even understand what I am talking
> >>  >>about, that may explain why none are available.
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > :)
> >>  >> > > Doug S.
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> > > --- In
> >> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>  >>"James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �*�WindyBoy�*� ?
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > > From: Doug
> >>  >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
> >>  >> > > > To:
> >> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>  >> > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie
> >>Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > >�
> >>  >> > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of
> >>  >>green green green, and tried to participate.
> >>  >>Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air
> >>  >>pollution - I've heard all the reasons...
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google,
> >>  >>BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to the
> >>  >>pronouncements of (future) progress...
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and
conventions...
> >>  >> > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and
> >>  >>happy-talk, the most advanced country on Earth,
> >>  >>has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug
> >>  >>a windmill into and have it work.
> >>  >> > > > Yup that sounds about right.
> >>  >> > > >
> >  > >> > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
> >>  >> > > > I guess, just like we'll never see
> >>  >>another man on the moon, we'll never have a
> >>  >>grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all
> >>  >>those green agencies are BUSY! Busy planning
> >>  >>the next conference that will take a few more
> >>  >>million gallons of oil to get everyone there.
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > > What, you say you have a windmill and
> >>  >>want to plug it into the grid? Oh that's
> >>  >>nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>  >> > > >
> >>  >> > >
> >>  >> >
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >> ------------------------------------
> >>  >>
> >>  >> ==========================================================
> >>  >> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> >>  >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>  >> . Please feel free to send your input to:
> >>  >> �
>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>  >> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
> >>  >> �
> >> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home-su\
bscribe%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>  >> . To view previous messages from the list,
> >>  >> � subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
> >>  >> � or stop receiving the list by e-mail
> >>  > > � (and read it on the Web), go to
> >>  >> �
> >> 
>><<http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.yahoogroups.com/l\
ist/small-wind-home><http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.\
yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home
> >>  >>.�
> >>  >> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
> >>  >> �
> >> 
>><<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>\
<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
> >>  >>.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>  >>
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>
> >>
> >>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Doug,

Your guesses about my point of view are almost entertaining, but not on target.

I'm saying that it's really easy for anyone to
theorize about what the wind industry "really
needs", but the reality is that the marketplace
sorts that out, and not usually how any one
person (even you or me ;-) ) thinks it oughta be.

I don't think having a certain inverter is a silver bullet.

And I disagree that the presence or absence of a
dump load is a critical factor in the success of
failure of a wind turbine.

I'm a strong proponent of _successful_
wind-electric systems, but a critic of crap,
pie-in-the-sky, poorly sited, hare-brained,
top-down, government-funded, and poor performing
components or systems.

I generally recommend that people purchase a
package -- turbine, electronics, and even tower
if possible -- from one company, and chose a
company that will support the whole system.

I believe that there are many successful ways to
skin a cat and build a wind-electric system. And
there are at least a hundred times as many ways
to wasted money, time, and effort.

That's all from me,

Ian

>OK Ian. I, like you, listen to a ton of
>happy-talk about "let's all get behind green
>energy". "Green Jobs" are supposed to be saving
>our entire economy. I mean, that IS what they
>say, isn't it? They DO say green energy is the
>most important thing in the world, specifically,
>the key to our future, right? We see millions,
>if not BILLIONS of dollars being thrown around,
>willy-nilly, at "green" companies that everyone
>knows are in the process in failing (Solyndra
>etc.). How much money has been given to Tesla?
>Don't they need green electricty to drag all
>those heavy, expensive batteries around?
>
>I have a friend here who charges his Chevy Volt
>using his Bergey wind turbine that does not use
>a dump load. I wonder if Chevy Volt has a dump
>load? I wonder if Chevy Volt will even survive
>as a product, or if it is just one more
>government "throw money at green energy" program
>that fizzles when the funding dries up?
>
>Meanwhile, I live in perhaps the highest
>concentration of homes powered by their own wind
>turbines in the world - a clear poster-child of
>a green-energy future, that most people don't
>know exists. Do you think President Obama even
>knows about Oak Hills, California? That we have
>almost 100% solar availability at 3600 feet
>elevation? (almost no clouds ever) That you
>drive around and see turbine after turbine after
>turbine, after turbine, all spinning, all the
>time? That we get 30 mph winds almost every day?
>
>I guess what you mean is that all this green
>energy talk is just a lot of hot air - that
>nobody really means anything they say - that
>nobody cares if small wind takes hold. Is that
>it? Your point is that green energy is handed to
>us as being the key to our future, but that is
>all bullshit because is it is just a small niche
>industry that really doesn't matter to anyone?
>Why don't you get out of it since you prefer
>solar? Why even participate if you don't care if
>it advances. Are you in charge of helping to
>wipe it out before it really gets started?
>
>For people who are INTO wind energy, who are
>SERIOUS about it, the components we use MATTER.
>We don't think it is some trivial thing not
>worth mentioning when we find the key to
>advancing the small wind industry, and having
>even ONE inverter on the market that simply
>WORKS with any standard wind turbine is a key
>factor to allow small wind to advance.
>
>As I drive around this clean and green
>poster-child of a wind-and-solar-powered
>community, perhaps the greenest region in the
>world, I see well over a hundred wind turbines
>spinning. Most of those are Bergey 10 kW
>systems. One or two are Skystreams. None of
>these turbines uses a dump load. My experimental
>turbine outside right now does not use a dump
>load. It has an inverter designed for wind
>turbines. I can take you around and show you
>over 100 working systems, that are always
>spinning, and none has a dump load.
>
>Or we can travel out a bit further and see a few
>Chinese turbines that DO have a dump load, that
>are sometimes working, other times sitting with
>missing blades, etc. Or we can find one or two
>old Whisper 175 installations using old xantrex
>inverters that employ a dump load and see most
>not working, and often the problem is the FET's
>that trigger the diump load having burned out.
>
>So is your point that small wind is not really
>part of any clean and green future? Or that the
>all the green energy funding should be wasted
>instead of spent on good causes like even HAVING
>an inverter than can even take a wind turbine as
>input?
>
>Obviously, the market has not sufficiently
>supported the company that went out of business.
>Obviously nobody saw it as important that the
>manufacturer be supported by some bailout or
>loan guarantee. Then again, as editor of Home
>Power Magazine, did you ever do an article on
>DTI and let the public know that they produced
>an inverter that could handle a wind turbine as
>input? Or did you ever do an article explaining
>how wind energy systems that are reliable seldom
>include a dump load while the ones that break
>down all the time use dump loads?
>
>To simply state that I have a great inverter
>here that works well and I would like to see
>more like it, and have people like you try and
>find a way to argue with it, just makes me
>realize once again that we in this green energy
>field are running an uphill battle, with the
>people who should be promoti8ng wind energy
>trying to slow it down, suggesting that
>proposing advances, or even identifying
>already-achieved advances, and suggesting that
>we need more of what works, is somehow out of
>line.
>
>Such a negative attitude toward progress, toward
>appropriate components, and identifying what
>actually works, helps to drag things down,
>making developing green energy like trying to
>run a marathon through quicksand. Green energy
>development is supposed to be a sprint with
>cheering and people pushing it along, not a an
>uphill quicksand crawl pushing the people who
>are supposed to be helping out of the way as
>they try to hold it back.
>
>Instead of fighting progress, why not get on
>board and help me promote progress? Then maybe
>small wind could be relevant. Yeah, it;ls a
>niche industry. Why? No suitable inverter. Its
>that simple. You are describing the resulting
>symptom of small wind being a niche, as a reason
>to not implement the cure, which is an inverter
>made for small wind.
>
>No suitable inverter => niche industry... get it?
>
>Just imagine, all those wind energy innovators,
>having an inverter that could just take their
>output without asking the turbine developer to
>do the inverter developer's job! How much more
>likely would it be that any turbine developer
>could be successful?
>
>I think if the people in charge want to peg our
>future on "clean-and-green", there ought to be a
>few dollars available to develop such an
>inverter, or just copy the ones that already
>exist.
>
>And mind you, this is not that complicated: The
>old Xantrex inverters used for my older Bergey
>10 kW system here has no dump load either. They
>also had a way to just let the turbine go. And
>the Skystream has no dump load either. I guess
>the publicly-funded eggheads who helped design
>that system also thought an inverter that could
>handle a wind turbine was in order.
>
>Hey Ian, how about if your house wiring can't
>take a light bulb? And you are asked to provide
>protection for the whole wiring system to screw
>in a light bulb? Good idea huh?
>
>By the way, to Mike Klemen, although your reply
>regarding standardization of parts between
>brands was off-topic, (topic: inverters that can
>take 3-phase input and reject overvoltage),
>nevertheless, the other day my girlfriend's
>Dodge PT cruiser needed a brake-light bulb. We
>got the 2-pack. When the front blinker on my
>commercial Chevy Express 3500 van went out, I
>used the other bulb from the the 2-pack, since
>both vehicles, different brands, different
>types, made on opposite sides of the world, took
>the same exact part. So besides being off-topic,
>your post was also factually disprovable.
>
>OK gotta run. I hope I have time to do anything
>to move small-wind forward today. Geez I think I
>just wasted an hour on deaf ears. Hopefully not
>100% deaf ears.
>
>:)
>Doug Selsam
>
>--- In
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Hi Doug,
>>
>>  I think that when products don't develop and
>>  succeed, it's for reasons. Usually it's because
>>  there isn't enough of a market at the price. We
>>  work and play in a small, niche industry. There
>>  isn't gobs of money to throw around.
>>
>>  As I tried to say, I have no problem with you
>>  having a wish list. It's when you cross the line
>>  to "someone should be doing this for me/us" that
>>  you lose me. I encourage you to go after your
>>  wish list -- if you build it, maybe they will
>>  come. Everyone else has his/her own wish list
>>  too. The marketplace decides who gets their
>>  wishes, and at what price.
>>
>>  I note that there are plenty of people with a
>>  "grid-tie wind system that works" now, even if
>>  they don't fit into your wish list. Personally,
>>  I'd rather spend more time making things work,
>>  and less time dreaming about what could be.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Ian
>>
>>
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Ian:
>>  >I'm posting here what I see as the obvious
>>  >characteristics a grid-tie inverter for wind
>>  >turbines should have, starting with the fact
>>  >that it should take a common home-size wind
>>  >turbine as input and ending with the fact that
>>  >it should be able to protect itself.
>>  >
>>  >I've stated that this would enable easier
>>  >development of reliable complete systems, as
>>  >long as the turbine was also capable of
>>  >protecting itself.
>>  >
>>  >I've cited as evidence that the one consistently
>>  >reliable brand in common use, the Bergey 10kW
>>  >system, uses such an inverter.
>>  >
>>  >I've also stated that I have such an inverter
>>  >here, it works great, and that the company is
>>  >going out of business.
>>  >
>>  >I can afford anything. I'm worried about
>>system cost for people on a budget.
>>  >
>>  >"We" don't "decide" what businesses do, unless
>>  >we own the business. On the other hand, this
>>  >internet is supposed to allow us to discuss
>>  >things like what an inverter for wind turbines
>>  >would be like and that we would like to see one.
>>  >
>>  >maybe someone from, say, NREL or the NWTC or the
>>  >SWCC will read this, decide it makes sense, and
>>  >in some conversation with an inverter company,
>>  >let them know that nobody is really producing an
>>  >inverter for wind energy at all, tell them the
>>  >simple added features it would neeed to have,
>>  >and maybe we could see such an inverter offered
>>  >as a result.
>>  >
>>  >The process is communication and feedback.
>>  >
>>  >I guess the most mystifying part is why I have
>>  >to bring this up after so many years of
>>  >happy-talk about green energy. And of course
>>  >those with too much t9ime on their hands has to
>>  >come out of the woodwork to try and make a
>>  >simple observation of a fact into some sort of
>>  >argument, or an excuse to promote their pet
>>  >theory.
>>  >
>>  >I guess your point is "Why should anyone care
>>  >what anyone thinks?" or "Why should we
>>  >communicate?" or "Why would you ever suggest an
>>  >improvement" or "Why would you, after 10 years
>>  >of beating your head against the wall in small
>>  >wind, identify a major obstacle and post it on
>>  >the web?"
>>  >Whatever your point is, I don't see it. I want
>>  >more inverters that I can plug my
>>  >now-trouble-free wind turbines into and have
>>  >them work, OK?
>>  >I'm relating my experience and where that has
>>  >led in my thoughts on what is needed in this
>>  >industry.
>>  >It's not just for me, it's for everyone who
>>  >wants a grid-tie wind system that works.
>>  >
>>  >Take it for what it's worth.
>>  >
>>  >--- In
>> 
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups\
.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> Hi Doug,
>>  >>
>>  >> I'm not sure why "we" get to decide what businesses should do.
>>  >>
>>  >> It seems to me that if a business can design an
>>  >> inverter that pleases you, you will buy it
>  > >> (though I suspect that you may decide you can't
>>  >> afford it ;-) ).
>>  >>
>>  >> Meanwhile, each business is making its own
>>  >> decisions about what products it can profitably
>>  >> design and sell.
>>  >>
>>  >> I don't think any inverter manufacturer "asks" us
>>  >> to do anything, unless it's to read the specs on
>>  >> the piece of gear we voluntarily pay for, and
>>  >> decide whether it's worth it to us. I suppose
>>  >> they would also like us to understand its
>>  >> limitations and not kill it and then blame them.
>>  > >
>>  >> Your house wire/light bulb example seems to
>>  >> confirm my view -- the wire manufacturer produces
>>  >> wire with certain ratings, and if you use it in a
>>  >> way it wasn't designed for, it could fail.
>>  >>
>>  >> I'm with you when you suggest or even list what
>>  >> qualities _you would like_ in an inverter. You
>>  >> lose me when you seem to assume that there is
>>  >> some obligation for someone else to design
>>  >> something that you like. If there's enough demand
>>  >> for a product, and someone can make it
>>  >> profitably, it may happen. If very few people
>>  >> want it, and aren't willing to pay for it amply,
>>  >> it probably won't happen.
>>  >>
>>  >> Best,
>>  >>
>>  >> Ian
>>  >>
>>  >> At 7:44 PM +0000 7/29/12, Doug wrote:
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >> >Mike:
>>  >> >I didn't even mention standardization. That's
>>  >> >not what I meant by "building blocks". Lest my
>>  >> >point be lost, I said I think if each component
>>  >> >can protect itself under all conditions, then
>>  >> >they can be combined into a system that protects
>>  >> >itself under all conditions.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
>>  >> >I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine
>>  >> >designer is asked to protect the inverter
>>  >> >because the inverters have no protection from
>>  >> >the most common problem a turbine is likely to
>>  >> >throw at them, either before being loaded down
>>  >> >during initialization, or during a storm,
>>  >> >especially if the grid goes down.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >The reason is because inverters were designed
>>  >> >for solar, as illustrated by the fact that they
>>  >> >cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the
>>  >> >average turbine.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask
>>  >> >the turbine manufacturer to handle. Their
>>  >> >inverters are simply not true wind turbine
>>  >> >inverters. Nobody makes a true wind turbine
>>  >> >inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to
>>  >> >think it was just a huge problem for me, but I
>>  >> >see it is really a huge problem for the entire
>>  >> >industry and a main reason why this industry is
>>  >> >stuck in neutral, or maybe first gear.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb
>>  >> >to provide protection for the house wiring. The
>>  >> >house wiring can protect itself. If any
>>  >> >appliance has a short circuit, you don't have to
>>  >> >send your house back to the manufacturer for
>>  >> >rewiring, because someone thought it through,
>>  >> >and decided the house had to protect itself.
>>  >> >They included circuit-breakers or fuses to
>>  >> >properly protect the house wiring.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >The operative word is not "standardization" of
>>  >> >components, in the sense of swapping parts
>>  >> >between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in
>>  >> >the sense that the bozo specifying capacitors
>>  >> >that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
>>  >> >error, should then realize that he needs to
>>  >> >include a way to protect that component from
>>  >> >that condition.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >It's nice to tell the turbine designer to
>>  >> >include a rectifier because your inverter is
>>  >> >made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage
>>  >> >protection, because the sun never gets twice as
>>  >> >bright, but the explanation why is always the
>>  >> >same: The inverter was designed for solar and
>>  >> >they just don't care about wind enough to do
>>  >> >anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid
>>  >> >"wind turbine interface box" and a "dump load"
>>  >> >that doubles your cost, takes twice the space,
>>  >> >and turns red-hot when it gets windy.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >So the turbine person is on their own, trying to
>  > >> >do the job of the inverter designer.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >The standardization of car parts fitting other
>>  >> >cars is there to a large extent anyway - you can
>>  >> >put the same fender or Delco alternator on
>>  >> >either your Camaro, or your Firebird, but
>>  >> >electrical parts can fit together between brands
>>  >> >even more easily, because of standardized wire
>>  >> >sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
>>  >> >intermediary is electricity, which is generic
>>  >> >and brand-neutral.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >Thanks for writing.
>>  >> >Doug Selsam
>>  >>
><<<http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com><http://www.selsam.com>http://ww\
w.selsam.com><<http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com><http://www.selsam.co\
m>http://www.selsam.com
>>  >> >
>>  >> >--- In
>>  >>
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups\
.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >> >Michael Klemen <wind4energy@> wrote:
>>  > > >>
>>  >> >> Doug,
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
>>  >> >> because you do.� But if we take another industry and compare it to
>>  >> >> wind, can it provide valuable clues?� Take the automotive industry.
>>  >> >> They have been building cars 100 years.� You would think they have
>>  >> >> it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
>>  >> >> are easy to piece together and easy to fix.� Alas, the manufacturers
>>  >> >> do not standardize much, if at all!� Are
>>  >>there standard size alternators
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
>>  >> >> auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?� Can you
>>  >> >> take your pick of X number of standard
>>  >>bearings?� For some reason, things
>>  >> >> that we could all benefit from being
>>standard doesn't exist in a standard
>>  >> >> configuration.� Imagine how nice it would
>>  >>be to go to the auto parts store,
>>  >> >> and know, without a shadow of a doubt,
>>they will have in stock the part
>>  >> >> you need!� Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
>>  >> >> this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> as to why this doesn't happen?� Standardization comes at a cost.
>>  >> >> What is that cost?� Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
>>  >> >> shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
>>  >> >> bullet proof for all turbines.� It's that
>>  >> >>cost savings, likely, that prevents
>>  >> >> standardization.� Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Mike
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> ________________________________
>>  >> >> From: Doug <dougselsam@>
>>  >> >> To:
>>  >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>>  >> >> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
>>  >> >> Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for
>>  >>wind turbines? building blocks
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
>>  >> >> Any developed art has building blocks that can
>>  >> >>be combined into a system.� Usually each
>>  >> >>building block is self-sufficient, and capable
>>  >> >>of handling its own basic function, so one can
>>  >> >>then combine components.
>>  >> >> Not so in small wind.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> From the very beginning, I noticed that
>>  >> >>research grants and certifying agencies wanted
>>  >> >>to see "complete systems", including all
>>  >> >>electronics, the tower, all shut-off switches,
>>  >> >>cables, every single detail of a complete
>>  >> >>system, specified by the turbine developer or
>>  >> >>researcher.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a
>>  >> >>more powerful turbine, no agency is capable of
>>  >> >>simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?�
>>  >> >>I imagined agencies like NREL having a bunch of
>>  >> >>towers with wiring and inverters, and if you
>  > >> >>had an interesting turbine they'd just call you
>>  >> >>up and say: "Hey can you bring one of those
>>  >> >>here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> But no, they could only test "a complete
>>  >> >>system".� It seemed like there was "something
>>  >> >>wrong with this picture", like having to design
>>  >> >>a complete house just to test an air
>>  >> >>conditioner.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> The thing that really struck me was the number
>>  >> >>of parties capable, or willing, to develop one
>>  >> >>building-block, say a turbine that was capable
>>  >> >>of protecting itself, was much higher than the
>>  >> >>number of parties capable of developing an
>>  >> >>entire system.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning
>>  >> >>about airfoils, propellers and bearings, power
>>  >> >>and swept area, spinning and twirling,
>>  >> >>pirouetting and furling, horsepower and watts,
>>  >> >>RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine
>>  >> >>designer has to know.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> But I found that nobody could or would test
>>  >> >>just a turbine.� They only wanted to test a
>>  >> >>complete system including tower and all cabling
>>  >> >>and electronics including the inverter.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Lets assume someone had developed a 100%
>>  >> >>foolproof turbine that was quiet, could never
>>  > > >>burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.�
>>  >> >>Nobody would have been willing to test it,
>>  >> >>certify it, none of that.� Nope.� You had to
>>  >> >>have "a complete system".
>>  >> > >
>>  >> >> At first it seemed like some hard news, but
>>  >> >>perhaps reasonable.� But the real problem
>>  >> >>slowly dawned on me:� No inverter was capable
>>  >> >>of simply protecting itself.� No inverter was
>>  >> >>"turbine-ready".� A self-sufficient inverter
>>  >> >>for a wind turbine simply did not exist.� None
>>  >> >>of the inverter companies seemed to care or
>>  >> >>"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on
>>  >> >>boxes with dump loads etc. were expensive
>>  >> >>workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box
>>  >> >>and a wall full of electronics to allow you to
>>  >> >>screw in a light bulb.� Ridiculous.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> For years now I've been dabbling in the field
>>  >> >>of electronics, to try and create more
>>  >> >>affordable band-aids than the inverter
>>  >> >>companies were offering, but that takes us back
>>  >> >>to the basic affordability and complexity of a
>>  >> >>system.�
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> To me, by the time every new aspect or
>>  >> >>consideration means another $1000 add-on, few
>>  >> >>customers would be interested in a financially
>>  >> >>top-heavy Rube Goldberg agglomeration of
>>  >> >>failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot
>>  >> >>every time the wind is strong.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Additionally, asking anyone developing a
>>  >> >>turbine to out-think hundreds of trained
>>  >> >>electrical engineers just to get a turbine
>>  >> >>tested is not realistic.� No, the answer is
>>  >> >>for each component to take care of itself, then
>>  >> >>they can be combined.� If a turbine can
>>  >> >>protect itself under any conditions, and an
>>  >> >>inverter can protect itself under any
>>  >> >>conditions, then you can combine them and have
>>  >> >>a system that will protect itself under any
>>  >> >>conditions.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Instead, we ask people developing turbines to
>>  >> >>make up for the failure of the inverter
>>  >> >>designers.� We tell the turbine developers:
>>  >> >>You must supersede highly-talented electronic
>>  >> >>and electrical engineers because they simply
>>  >> >>cannot be expected to do their job - YOU must
>>  >> >>do their job, or you are just not good enough,
>>  >> >>your turbine is just not good enough, and the
>>  >> >>green energy movement will stop here.� Stuck
>>  >> >>in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying
>>  >> >>tickets to the next trade-show to notice.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Hey here's a clue:
>>  >> >> If we had inverters that could handle
>>  >> >>themselves, anyone could develop a turbine and
>>  >> >>connect it, and maybe this art would not be
>>  >> >>still stuck in the same exact place it was 10
>  > >> >>years ago.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> :)
>>  >> >> Doug Selsam
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> --- In
>>  >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >> >>"boB G" <bob@> wrote:
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > Doug is right on here, however, there are
>>  >> >>add-ons for some of these inverters to do what
>>  >> >>his Windy Girl does.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > Some call it a clamp, some call it a
>>  >> >>limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the voltage
>>  >> >>like audio signals get clipped)
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > Did you know that SMA actually makes a
>>  >> >>voltage limiter for their Windy Boy� ??� I
>>  >> >>can't remember exactly what they call it but am
>>  >> >>surprised that I don't here it talked about
>>  >> >>more.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > I think that� Power One makes a voltage
>>  >> >>limiter for the Aurora grid tie inverter.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that
>>  >> >>consists of a long series of diodes that was
>>  >> >>made for their E110 (?) that was being used
>>  >> >>with Outback MX60s for a while.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > As far as I have found, a controllable
>>  >> >>limiter is best, since it can reduce RPMs when
>>  >> >>the grid goes away or the batteries are full or
>>  >> >>the controller or inverter is at its maximum
>>  >> >>rated output power.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a
>>  >> >>built in Clipper but it makes sense that this
>>  >> >>would be an external add on with the rectifiers
>>  >> >>built in as well.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > boB
>>  >> >> >
>>  > > >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > --- In
>>  >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >> >>"Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and
>>  >> >>repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.� I've sold a few of
>>  >> >>these, and own a couple more. We can program a
>>  >> >>SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.� The unit is ruined
>>  >> >>if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.�
>>  >> >>And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind
>>  >> >>turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.� I think I'm
>>  >> >>just repeating myself here, implying people are
>>  >> >>replying without reading my original post.
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > Thanks for again making my point, that
>>  >> >>there is no grid-tie inverter available that
>>  >> >>you can plug a wind turbine into and have it
>>  >> >>just work.
>>  >> > > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example
>>  >> >of a grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
>>  >> >turbine into and have it work. (nice try
>>  >> >though...)
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL -
>>  >> >>electronics that will protect your WindyBOY
>>  >> >>inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out
>>  >> >>your turbine by braking it.� I will keep
>>  >> >>working on it.
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I
>>  >> >>don't think either is a guarantee you won't
>>  >> >>seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to
>>  >> >>ruin the inverter.� I wouldn't I'd bet your
>>  >> >>inverter on the idea that no gust combined with
>>  >> >>a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could
>>  >> >>ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
>>  >> >>moment.
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > All it takes is a second of high voltage
>>  >> >>to smoke the input capacitors, as they have a
>>  >> >>very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
>>  >> >>---zap--- - you are sending out your entire
>>  >> >>inverter for repairs.� Just the shipping back
>>  >> >>and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the
>>  >> >>repair cost.
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a
>>  >> >>mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor selling
>>  >> >>battery-charging inverters that use a dump
>>  >> >>load, in response to the topic of a grid-tie
>>  >> >>inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
>>  >> >>understanding.
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
>  > >> >> > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine
>>  >>that can take a Turbine as Input"
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > If you want to refute my post, saying that
>>  >> >>such is not currently available, please give an
>>  >> >>example and explain how it takes 3-phase input
>>  >> >>and is not damaged by overvoltage.� In other
>>  >> >>words, please stick to the topic and do not
>>  >> >>diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > If this simple idea is too complicated for
>>  >> >>anyone to even understand what I am talking
>>  >> >>about, that may explain why none are available.
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > :)
>>  >> >> > > Doug S.
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> > > --- In
>>  >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
>>  >> >>"James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �*�WindyBoy�*� ?
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > > From: Doug
>>  >> >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
>>  >> >> > > > To:
>>  >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>>  >> >> > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie
>>  >>Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > >�
>>  >> >> > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of
>>  >> >>green green green, and tried to participate.
>>  >> >>Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air
>>  >> >>pollution - I've heard all the reasons...
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google,
>>  >> >>BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to the
>>  >> >>pronouncements of (future) progress...
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > > I've been to all the green
>>feel-good trade shows and conventions...
>>  >> >> > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and
>>  >> >>happy-talk, the most advanced country on Earth,
>>  >> >>has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug
>>  >> >>a windmill into and have it work.
>>  >> >> > > > Yup that sounds about right.
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  > > >> > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
>>  >> >> > > > I guess, just like we'll never see
>>  >> >>another man on the moon, we'll never have a
>>  >> >>grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all
>>  >> >>those green agencies are BUSY! Busy planning
>>  >> >>the next conference that will take a few more
>>  >> >>million gallons of oil to get everyone there.
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > > What, you say you have a windmill and
>>  >> >>want to plug it into the grid? Oh that's
>>  >> >>nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>  >> >> > > >
>>  >> >> > >
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> ------------------------------------
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> ==========================================================
>>  >> >> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
>>  >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> >> . Please feel free to send your input to:
>>  >> >> �
>> 
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
>>  >> >> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
>>  >> >> �
>>  >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home-su\
bscribe%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>sm\
all-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>  >> >> . To view previous messages from the list,
>>  >> >> � subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
>>  >> >> � or stop receiving the list by e-mail
>>  >> > > � (and read it on the Web), go to
>>  >> >> �
>>  >>
>><<<http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.yahoogroups.com/\
list/small-wind-home><http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www\
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nd-home>http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home><http://www.yahoogroups.\
com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home
>  > >> >>.�
>>  >> >> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
>>  >> >> �
>>  >>
>><<<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen\
><http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen><<\
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen><htt\
p://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
>>  >> >>.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>
>>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doug,


After my last reply, you insisted you weren't in search of standardized
components, but everything you said after that indicates that is what
you want.� You want a plug and play inverter for any wind turbine that is
not battery based.� Whether the inverter disconnects the turbine or shorts

it out would influence thedesign of the turbine.� So in that sense it's not

a standalone component.� Your turbine design would have to be affected
by the behavior of the inverter. Maybe that is appealing to some,

and maybe it's not.� TheBergeys you keep talking about are able to be

safely run when unloaded.� We cannot say that for all turbines, so it

isn't so standard, then, is it?


I appreciate your success in finding a tiny little piece of an automobile
that is standard.� Saying there is standardization because a light bulb
matches is like saying we have standardization with inverters because
you can purchase the same resistors used in the internal circuitry.� Pick
a bigger element and try again.� Gosh, maybe wind turbines are all
standard.� They use magnets, steel and copper wiring!� How about the

car's computer, wiringharness, or seats?�� Gosh, by now those should

be standardized.� I think you'vemissed my point!� There is very little that

is standardized there unless youlook at a very tiny piece of the puzzle.�

Can you say the wiring harnessis standardized if it uses 12 gage wire?�

No.� Can you say you havea plug and play inverter because when it uses

a common PC board?� Hardly.�


Honestly, Doug, I appreciate the thought, but it sounds like you expect
somebody else to solve these problems.� You expect that it's somebody
else's responsibility to do this.� Why the SWCC?� They only certify

turbines.� They aren't involved with design/manufacture.� Why NREL?
They are a research lab.� Different people have different perspectives
and different goals.� Why did NREL (I think it was NREL) get funding
to start regional testing labs?� Why did they spend efforts on certification
processes?� So that turbines can start getting testedand certified.�

Certification should lead to better adoption by consumers,which would

improve the market, and thus lower prices.� That's a differentperspective

than yours on what it's going to take to make small winda viable, cost
effective industry.� Are they wrong?� That is yet to be seen.� I happen
to agree with that path.� That kind of infrastructure takes time to build.

Maybe NREL has taken its vastexperience and done enough research

to determine this building blockis the next step to a viable market.� Yet,

your opinion is that they aren'tdoing the right thing.� Everybody is entitled

to their opinion.� Pleasejust don't ignore what has been done with the

resources that areavailable, and the lessons that have been learned

from the money thathas already been spent.� If the world had a blank

check, I suspect we would havea standard inverter by now.


Having been in small wind and blown a boat load of money on it,
I honestly think that certification effort is far more worthwhile than spending

thatsame money on an inverter.� Why?� The consumer needs a complete
system that works, not a single piece.� If you took half of the turbines
that I've flown, and give me a bullet-proof inverter, that doesn't change
the outcome.� They would still not be flying today.� I would have still
spent a boatload of money and have nothing to show for it.� Those

turbines never prevented any pollution.� In fact, they caused more
pollution than if they never were installed!

So back to your initial request...and to my opinion on the matter.

You see a problem that a plug and play inverter is needed.� What
was your goal in bringing it to the list?� Are you expecting somebody
else to solve this problem?� Are you wanting to design it on this
list?� Are you asking for an angel investor to help you accomplish
this goal?� To have a successful product, you need to have at
least 3 things...a good product, a market for it, and a price point
that people are willing to pay.� That's just thinking about it for a
second, not any full analysis.� Without any of the 3, it won't survive.


I'm not into manufacturing turbines.� I don't have the resources
to do that, so I've never seen the "problem" from your perspective.
You've done some serious thinking about it, analyzed it and find

that to be a serious challenge.� I am in no way trying to minimize

the value of what you've stated and observed.� You are good at
analyzing things and observing!� But what to do now is the question.


Personally, from my experience, I felt my time and efforts were better
spent in the wind industry trying to get to the point where turbines
could be certified, with updated standards for testing that would

make it possible to compare apples to apples.� It would make it
easier for a consumer to buy a turbine, because there would be a

certain degree of confidence that the turbine could survive.�


You haven't seen me install a turbine in what, the last 10 years?�

I haven't quit the industry because I haven't installed a turbine, I've just

put my resources where I felt I could have the most impact.� I learned

certain lessons from owning turbines and from my data acquisition
that I could help more people avoid the problems I've had.� Sorry,

I never thought about an inverter before, but that's also not my specialty,

so I will leave it to somebody else to solve that problem.

Mike
p.s. I installed a "new" Proven WT2500 last year to replace the one
the windings burned up on (the replacement I found was not incredibly
more expensive than the windings).� The AWP 3.6 is still running, as

well as the Bergey XL.1.�




________________________________
  From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 3, 2012 10:29 AM
Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks

OK Ian.� I, like you, listen to a ton of happy-talk about "let's all get behind
green energy".� "Green Jobs" are supposed to be saving our entire economy.� I
mean, that IS what they say, isn't it?� They DO say green energy is the most
important thing in the world, specifically, the key to our future, right?� We
see millions, if not BILLIONS of dollars being thrown around, willy-nilly, at
"green" companies that everyone knows are in the process in failing (Solyndra
etc.).� How much money has been given to Tesla?� Don't they need green
electricty to drag all those heavy, expensive batteries around?

I have a friend here who charges his Chevy Volt using his Bergey wind turbine
that does not use a dump load.� I wonder if Chevy Volt has a dump load?� I
wonder if Chevy Volt will even survive as a product, or if it is just one more
government "throw money at green energy" program that fizzles when the funding
dries up?

Meanwhile, I live in perhaps the highest concentration of homes powered by their
own wind turbines in the world - a clear poster-child of a green-energy future,
that most people don't know exists.� Do you think President Obama even knows
about Oak Hills, California?� That we have almost 100% solar availability at
3600 feet elevation? (almost no clouds ever)� That you drive around and see
turbine after turbine after turbine, after turbine, all spinning, all the time?�
That we get 30 mph winds almost every day?

I guess what you mean is that all this green energy talk is just a lot of hot
air - that nobody really means anything they say - that nobody cares if small
wind takes hold.� Is that it?� Your point is that green energy is handed to us
as being the key to our future, but that is all bullshit because is it is just a
small niche industry that really doesn't matter to anyone?� Why don't you get
out of it since you prefer solar?� Why even participate if you don't care if it
advances. Are you in charge of helping to wipe it out before it really gets
started?

For people who are INTO wind energy, who are SERIOUS about it, the components we
use MATTER.� We don't think it is some trivial thing not worth mentioning when
we find the key to advancing the small wind industry, and having even ONE
inverter on the market that simply WORKS with any standard wind turbine is a key
factor to allow small wind to advance.

As I drive around this clean and green poster-child of a wind-and-solar-powered
community, perhaps the greenest region in the world, I see well over a hundred
wind turbines spinning.� Most of those are Bergey 10 kW systems.� One or two are
Skystreams.� None of these turbines uses a dump load.� My experimental turbine
outside right now does not use a dump load.� It has an inverter designed for
wind turbines.� I can take you around and show you over 100 working systems,
that are always spinning, and none has a dump load.�

Or we can travel out a bit further and see a few Chinese turbines that DO have a
dump load, that are sometimes working, other times sitting with missing blades,
etc.� Or we can find one or two old Whisper 175 installations using old xantrex
inverters that employ a dump load and see most not working, and often the
problem is the FET's that trigger the diump load having burned out.

So is your point that small wind is not really part of any clean and green
future?� Or that the all the green energy funding should be wasted instead of
spent on good causes like even HAVING an inverter than can even take a wind
turbine as input?

Obviously, the market has not sufficiently supported the company that went out
of business.� Obviously nobody saw it as important that the manufacturer be
supported by some bailout or loan guarantee.� Then again, as editor of Home
Power Magazine, did you ever do an article on DTI and let the public know that
they produced an inverter that could handle a wind turbine as input?� Or did you
ever do an article explaining how wind energy systems that are reliable seldom
include a dump load while the ones that break down all the time use dump loads?

To simply state that I have a great inverter here that works well and I would
like to see more like it, and have people like you try and find a way to argue
with it, just makes me realize once again that we in this green energy field are
running an uphill battle, with the people who should be promoti8ng wind energy
trying to slow it down, suggesting that proposing advances, or even identifying
already-achieved advances, and suggesting that we need more of what works, is
somehow out of line.

Such a negative attitude toward progress, toward appropriate components, and
identifying what actually works, helps to drag things down, making developing
green energy like trying to run a marathon through quicksand.� Green energy
development is supposed to be a sprint with cheering and people pushing it
along, not a an uphill quicksand crawl pushing the people who are supposed to be
helping out of the way as they try to hold it back.

Instead of fighting progress, why not get on board and help me promote
progress?� Then maybe small wind could be relevant.� Yeah, it;ls a niche
industry.� Why?� No suitable inverter.� Its that simple.� You are describing the
resulting symptom of small wind being a niche, as a reason to not implement the
cure, which is an inverter made for small wind.�

No suitable inverter => niche industry... get it?

Just imagine, all those wind energy innovators, having an inverter that could
just take their output without asking the turbine developer to do the inverter
developer's job!� How much more likely would it be that any turbine developer
could be successful?

I think if the people in charge want to peg our future on "clean-and-green",
there ought to be a few dollars available to develop such an inverter, or just
copy the ones that already exist.�

And mind you, this is not that complicated:� The old Xantrex inverters used for
my older Bergey 10 kW system here has no dump load either.� They also had a way
to just let the turbine go.� And the Skystream has no dump load either.� I guess
the publicly-funded eggheads who helped design that system also thought an
inverter that could handle a wind turbine was in order.

Hey Ian, how about if your house wiring can't take a light bulb?� And you are
asked to provide protection for the whole wiring system to screw in a light
bulb?� Good idea huh?

By the way, to Mike Klemen, although your reply regarding standardization of
parts between brands was off-topic, (topic: inverters that can take 3-phase
input and reject overvoltage), nevertheless, the other day my girlfriend's Dodge
PT cruiser needed a brake-light bulb.� We got the 2-pack.� When the front
blinker on my commercial Chevy Express 3500 van went out, I used the other bulb
from the the 2-pack, since both vehicles, different brands, different types,
made on opposite sides of the world, took the same exact part.� So besides being
off-topic, your post was also factually disprovable.

OK gotta run.� I hope I have time to do anything to move small-wind forward
today.� Geez I think I just wasted an hour on deaf ears.� Hopefully not 100%
deaf ears.

:)
Doug Selsam


--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I think that when products don't develop and
> succeed, it's for reasons. Usually it's because
> there isn't enough of a market at the price. We
> work and play in a small, niche industry. There
> isn't gobs of money to throw around.
>
> As I tried to say, I have no problem with you
> having a wish list. It's when you cross the line
> to "someone should be doing this for me/us" that
> you lose me. I encourage you to go after your
> wish list -- if you build it, maybe they will
> come. Everyone else has his/her own wish list
> too. The marketplace decides who gets their
> wishes, and at what price.
>
> I note that there are plenty of people with a
> "grid-tie wind system that works" now, even if
> they don't fit into your wish list. Personally,
> I'd rather spend more time making things work,
> and less time dreaming about what could be.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
>
> >
> >
> >Ian:
> >I'm posting here what I see as the obvious
> >characteristics a grid-tie inverter for wind
> >turbines should have, starting with the fact
> >that it should take a common home-size wind
> >turbine as input and ending with the fact that
> >it should be able to protect itself.
> >
> >I've stated that this would enable easier
> >development of reliable complete systems, as
> >long as the turbine was also capable of
> >protecting itself.
> >
> >I've cited as evidence that the one consistently
> >reliable brand in common use, the Bergey 10kW
> >system, uses such an inverter.
> >
> >I've also stated that I have such an inverter
> >here, it works great, and that the company is
> >going out of business.
> >
> >I can afford anything. I'm worried about system cost for people on a budget.
> >
> >"We" don't "decide" what businesses do, unless
> >we own the business. On the other hand, this
> >internet is supposed to allow us to discuss
> >things like what an inverter for wind turbines
> >would be like and that we would like to see one.
> >
> >maybe someone from, say, NREL or the NWTC or the
> >SWCC will read this, decide it makes sense, and
> >in some conversation with an inverter company,
> >let them know that nobody is really producing an
> >inverter for wind energy at all, tell them the
> >simple added features it would neeed to have,
> >and maybe we could see such an inverter offered
> >as a result.
> >
> >The process is communication and feedback.
> >
> >I guess the most mystifying part is why I have
> >to bring this up after so many years of
> >happy-talk about green energy. And of course
> >those with too much t9ime on their hands has to
> >come out of the woodwork to try and make a
> >simple observation of a fact into some sort of
> >argument, or an excuse to promote their pet
> >theory.
> >
> >I guess your point is "Why should anyone care
> >what anyone thinks?" or "Why should we
> >communicate?" or "Why would you ever suggest an
> >improvement" or "Why would you, after 10 years
> >of beating your head against the wall in small
> >wind, identify a major obstacle and post it on
> >the web?"
> >Whatever your point is, I don't see it. I want
> >more inverters that I can plug my
> >now-trouble-free wind turbines into and have
> >them work, OK?
> >I'm relating my experience and where that has
> >led in my thoughts on what is needed in this
> >industry.
> >It's not just for me, it's for everyone who
> >wants a grid-tie wind system that works.
> >
> >Take it for what it's worth.
> >
> >--- In
> ><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>� Hi Doug,
> >>
> >>� I'm not sure why "we" get to decide what businesses should do.
> >>
> >>� It seems to me that if a business can design an
> >>� inverter that pleases you, you will buy it
> >>� (though I suspect that you may decide you can't
> >>� afford it ;-) ).
> >>
> >>� Meanwhile, each business is making its own
> >>� decisions about what products it can profitably
> >>� design and sell.
> >>
> >>� I don't think any inverter manufacturer "asks" us
> >>� to do anything, unless it's to read the specs on
> >>� the piece of gear we voluntarily pay for, and
> >>� decide whether it's worth it to us. I suppose
> >>� they would also like us to understand its
> >>� limitations and not kill it and then blame them.
> >� >
> >>� Your house wire/light bulb example seems to
> >>� confirm my view -- the wire manufacturer produces
> >>� wire with certain ratings, and if you use it in a
> >>� way it wasn't designed for, it could fail.
> >>
> >>� I'm with you when you suggest or even list what
> >>� qualities _you would like_ in an inverter. You
> >>� lose me when you seem to assume that there is
> >>� some obligation for someone else to design
> >>� something that you like. If there's enough demand
> >>� for a product, and someone can make it
> >>� profitably, it may happen. If very few people
> >>� want it, and aren't willing to pay for it amply,
> >>� it probably won't happen.
> >>
> >>� Best,
> >>
> >>� Ian
> >>
> >>� At 7:44 PM +0000 7/29/12, Doug wrote:
> >>� >
> >>� >
> >>� >Mike:
> >>� >I didn't even mention standardization. That's
> >>� >not what I meant by "building blocks". Lest my
> >>� >point be lost, I said I think if each component
> >>� >can protect itself under all conditions, then
> >>� >they can be combined into a system that protects
> >>� >itself under all conditions.
> >>� >
> >>� >I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
> >>� >I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine
> >>� >designer is asked to protect the inverter
> >>� >because the inverters have no protection from
> >>� >the most common problem a turbine is likely to
> >>� >throw at them, either before being loaded down
> >>� >during initialization, or during a storm,
> >>� >especially if the grid goes down.
> >>� >
> >>� >The reason is because inverters were designed
> >>� >for solar, as illustrated by the fact that they
> >>� >cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the
> >>� >average turbine.
> >>� >
> >>� >Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask
> >>� >the turbine manufacturer to handle. Their
> >>� >inverters are simply not true wind turbine
> >>� >inverters. Nobody makes a true wind turbine
> >>� >inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to
> >>� >think it was just a huge problem for me, but I
> >>� >see it is really a huge problem for the entire
> >>� >industry and a main reason why this industry is
> >>� >stuck in neutral, or maybe first gear.
> >>� >
> >>� >Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb
> >>� >to provide protection for the house wiring. The
> >>� >house wiring can protect itself. If any
> >>� >appliance has a short circuit, you don't have to
> >>� >send your house back to the manufacturer for
> >>� >rewiring, because someone thought it through,
> >>� >and decided the house had to protect itself.
> >>� >They included circuit-breakers or fuses to
> >>� >properly protect the house wiring.
> >>� >
> >>� >The operative word is not "standardization" of
> >>� >components, in the sense of swapping parts
> >>� >between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in
> >>� >the sense that the bozo specifying capacitors
> >>� >that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
> >>� >error, should then realize that he needs to
> >>� >include a way to protect that component from
> >>� >that condition.
> >>� >
> >>� >It's nice to tell the turbine designer to
> >>� >include a rectifier because your inverter is
> >>� >made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage
> >>� >protection, because the sun never gets twice as
> >>� >bright, but the explanation why is always the
> >>� >same: The inverter was designed for solar and
> >>� >they just don't care about wind enough to do
> >>� >anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid
> >>� >"wind turbine interface box" and a "dump load"
> >>� >that doubles your cost, takes twice the space,
> >>� >and turns red-hot when it gets windy.
> >>� >
> >>� >So the turbine person is on their own, trying to
> >>� >do the job of the inverter designer.
> >>� >
> >>� >The standardization of car parts fitting other
> >>� >cars is there to a large extent anyway - you can
> >>� >put the same fender or Delco alternator on
> >>� >either your Camaro, or your Firebird, but
> >>� >electrical parts can fit together between brands
> >>� >even more easily, because of standardized wire
> >>� >sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
> >>� >intermediary is electricity, which is generic
> >>� >and brand-neutral.
> >>� >
> >>� >Thanks for writing.
> >>� >Doug Selsam
> >>�
><<http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com><http://www.selsam.com>http://www\
.selsam.com
> >>� >
> >>� >--- In
> >>�
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups\
.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>� >Michael Klemen <wind4energy@> wrote:
> >� > >>
> >>� >> Doug,
> >>� >>
> >>� >> Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
> >>� >> because you do.� But if we take another industry and compare it to
> >>� >> wind, can it provide valuable clues?� Take the automotive industry.
> >>� >> They have been building cars 100 years.� You would think they have
> >>� >> it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
> >>� >> are easy to piece together and easy to fix.� Alas, the manufacturers
> >>� >> do not standardize much, if at all!� Are
> >>there standard size alternators
> >>� >>
> >>� >> withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
> >>� >> auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?� Can you
> >>� >> take your pick of X number of standard
> >>bearings?� For some reason, things
> >>� >> that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a
standard
> >>� >> configuration.� Imagine how nice it would
> >>be to go to the auto parts store,
> >>� >> and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
> >>� >> you need!� Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
> >>� >> this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
> >>� >>
> >>� >> perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
> >>� >>
> >>� >> as to why this doesn't happen?� Standardization comes at a cost.
> >>� >> What is that cost?� Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
> >>� >>
> >>� >> manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
> >>� >> shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
> >>� >> bullet proof for all turbines.� It's that
> >>� >>cost savings, likely, that prevents
> >>� >> standardization.� Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> Mike
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >> ________________________________
> >>� >> From: Doug <dougselsam@>
> >>� >> To:
> >>�
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>� >> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
> >>� >> Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for
> >>wind turbines? building blocks
> >>� >>
> >>� >> Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
> >>� >> Any developed art has building blocks that can
> >>� >>be combined into a system.� Usually each
> >>� >>building block is self-sufficient, and capable
> >>� >>of handling its own basic function, so one can
> >>� >>then combine components.
> >>� >> Not so in small wind.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> From the very beginning, I noticed that
> >>� >>research grants and certifying agencies wanted
> >>� >>to see "complete systems", including all
> >>� >>electronics, the tower, all shut-off switches,
> >>� >>cables, every single detail of a complete
> >>� >>system, specified by the turbine developer or
> >>� >>researcher.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a
> >>� >>more powerful turbine, no agency is capable of
> >>� >>simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?�
> >>� >>I imagined agencies like NREL having a bunch of
> >>� >>towers with wiring and inverters, and if you
> >>� >>had an interesting turbine they'd just call you
> >>� >>up and say: "Hey can you bring one of those
> >>� >>here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
> >>� >>
> >>� >> But no, they could only test "a complete
> >>� >>system".� It seemed like there was "something
> >>� >>wrong with this picture", like having to design
> >>� >>a complete house just to test an air
> >>� >>conditioner.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> The thing that really struck me was the number
> >>� >>of parties capable, or willing, to develop one
> >>� >>building-block, say a turbine that was capable
> >>� >>of protecting itself, was much higher than the
> >>� >>number of parties capable of developing an
> >>� >>entire system.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning
> >>� >>about airfoils, propellers and bearings, power
> >>� >>and swept area, spinning and twirling,
> >>� >>pirouetting and furling, horsepower and watts,
> >>� >>RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine
> >>� >>designer has to know.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> But I found that nobody could or would test
> >>� >>just a turbine.� They only wanted to test a
> >>� >>complete system including tower and all cabling
> >>� >>and electronics including the inverter.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> Lets assume someone had developed a 100%
> >>� >>foolproof turbine that was quiet, could never
> >� > >>burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.�
> >>� >>Nobody would have been willing to test it,
> >>� >>certify it, none of that.� Nope.� You had to
> >>� >>have "a complete system".
> >>� > >
> >>� >> At first it seemed like some hard news, but
> >>� >>perhaps reasonable.� But the real problem
> >>� >>slowly dawned on me:� No inverter was capable
> >>� >>of simply protecting itself.� No inverter was
> >>� >>"turbine-ready".� A self-sufficient inverter
> >>� >>for a wind turbine simply did not exist.� None
> >>� >>of the inverter companies seemed to care or
> >>� >>"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on
> >>� >>boxes with dump loads etc. were expensive
> >>� >>workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box
> >>� >>and a wall full of electronics to allow you to
> >>� >>screw in a light bulb.� Ridiculous.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> For years now I've been dabbling in the field
> >>� >>of electronics, to try and create more
> >>� >>affordable band-aids than the inverter
> >>� >>companies were offering, but that takes us back
> >>� >>to the basic affordability and complexity of a
> >>� >>system.�
> >>� >>
> >>� >> To me, by the time every new aspect or
> >>� >>consideration means another $1000 add-on, few
> >>� >>customers would be interested in a financially
> >>� >>top-heavy Rube Goldberg agglomeration of
> >>� >>failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot
> >>� >>every time the wind is strong.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> Additionally, asking anyone developing a
> >>� >>turbine to out-think hundreds of trained
> >>� >>electrical engineers just to get a turbine
> >>� >>tested is not realistic.� No, the answer is
> >>� >>for each component to take care of itself, then
> >>� >>they can be combined.� If a turbine can
> >>� >>protect itself under any conditions, and an
> >>� >>inverter can protect itself under any
> >>� >>conditions, then you can combine them and have
> >>� >>a system that will protect itself under any
> >>� >>conditions.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> Instead, we ask people developing turbines to
> >>� >>make up for the failure of the inverter
> >>� >>designers.� We tell the turbine developers:
> >>� >>You must supersede highly-talented electronic
> >>� >>and electrical engineers because they simply
> >>� >>cannot be expected to do their job - YOU must
> >>� >>do their job, or you are just not good enough,
> >>� >>your turbine is just not good enough, and the
> >>� >>green energy movement will stop here.� Stuck
> >>� >>in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying
> >>� >>tickets to the next trade-show to notice.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
> >>� >>
> >>� >> Hey here's a clue:
> >>� >> If we had inverters that could handle
> >>� >>themselves, anyone could develop a turbine and
> >>� >>connect it, and maybe this art would not be
> >>� >>still stuck in the same exact place it was 10
> >>� >>years ago.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> :)
> >>� >> Doug Selsam
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >> --- In
> >>�
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>� >>"boB G" <bob@> wrote:
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > Doug is right on here, however, there are
> >>� >>add-ons for some of these inverters to do what
> >>� >>his Windy Girl does.
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > Some call it a clamp, some call it a
> >>� >>limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the voltage
> >>� >>like audio signals get clipped)
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > Did you know that SMA actually makes a
> >>� >>voltage limiter for their Windy Boy� ??� I
> >>� >>can't remember exactly what they call it but am
> >>� >>surprised that I don't here it talked about
> >>� >>more.
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > I think that� Power One makes a voltage
> >>� >>limiter for the Aurora grid tie inverter.
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that
> >>� >>consists of a long series of diodes that was
> >>� >>made for their E110 (?) that was being used
> >>� >>with Outback MX60s for a while.
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > As far as I have found, a controllable
> >>� >>limiter is best, since it can reduce RPMs when
> >>� >>the grid goes away or the batteries are full or
> >>� >>the controller or inverter is at its maximum
> >>� >>rated output power.
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a
> >>� >>built in Clipper but it makes sense that this
> >>� >>would be an external add on with the rectifiers
> >>� >>built in as well.
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > boB
> >>� >> >
> >� > >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >> > --- In
> >>�
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>� >>"Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and
> >>� >>repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.� I've sold a few of
> >>� >>these, and own a couple more. We can program a
> >>� >>SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.� The unit is ruined
> >>� >>if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.�
> >>� >>And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind
> >>� >>turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.� I think I'm
> >>� >>just repeating myself here, implying people are
> >>� >>replying without reading my original post.
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > Thanks for again making my point, that
> >>� >>there is no grid-tie inverter available that
> >>� >>you can plug a wind turbine into and have it
> >>� >>just work.
> >>� > > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example
> >>� >of a grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
> >>� >turbine into and have it work. (nice try
> >>� >though...)
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL -
> >>� >>electronics that will protect your WindyBOY
> >>� >>inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out
> >>� >>your turbine by braking it.� I will keep
> >>� >>working on it.
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I
> >>� >>don't think either is a guarantee you won't
> >>� >>seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to
> >>� >>ruin the inverter.� I wouldn't I'd bet your
> >>� >>inverter on the idea that no gust combined with
> >>� >>a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could
> >>� >>ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
> >>� >>moment.
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > All it takes is a second of high voltage
> >>� >>to smoke the input capacitors, as they have a
> >>� >>very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
> >>� >>---zap--- - you are sending out your entire
> >>� >>inverter for repairs.� Just the shipping back
> >>� >>and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the
> >>� >>repair cost.
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a
> >>� >>mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor selling
> >>� >>battery-charging inverters that use a dump
> >>� >>load, in response to the topic of a grid-tie
> >>� >>inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
> >>� >>understanding.
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
> >>� >> > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine
> >>that can take a Turbine as Input"
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > If you want to refute my post, saying that
> >>� >>such is not currently available, please give an
> >>� >>example and explain how it takes 3-phase input
> >>� >>and is not damaged by overvoltage.� In other
> >>� >>words, please stick to the topic and do not
> >>� >>diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > If this simple idea is too complicated for
> >>� >>anyone to even understand what I am talking
> >>� >>about, that may explain why none are available.
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > :)
> >>� >> > > Doug S.
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> > > --- In
> >>�
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
> >>� >>"James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �*�WindyBoy�*� ?
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > > From: Doug
> >>� >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
> >>� >> > > > To:
> >>�
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>� >> > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie
> >>Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > >�
> >>� >> > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of
> >>� >>green green green, and tried to participate.
> >>� >>Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air
> >>� >>pollution - I've heard all the reasons...
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google,
> >>� >>BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to the
> >>� >>pronouncements of (future) progress...
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and
conventions...
> >>� >> > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and
> >>� >>happy-talk, the most advanced country on Earth,
> >>� >>has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug
> >>� >>a windmill into and have it work.
> >>� >> > > > Yup that sounds about right.
> >>� >> > > >
> >� > >> > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
> >>� >> > > > I guess, just like we'll never see
> >>� >>another man on the moon, we'll never have a
> >>� >>grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all
> >>� >>those green agencies are BUSY! Busy planning
> >>� >>the next conference that will take a few more
> >>� >>million gallons of oil to get everyone there.
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > > What, you say you have a windmill and
> >>� >>want to plug it into the grid? Oh that's
> >>� >>nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>� >> > > >
> >>� >> > >
> >>� >> >
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >> ------------------------------------
> >>� >>
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> >>� >> �
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>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
> >>� >> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
> >>� >> �
> >>�
>><mailto:small-wind-home-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home-su\
bscribe%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>� >> . To view previous messages from the list,
> >>� >> � subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
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ist/small-wind-home><http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.\
yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home
> >>� >>.�
> >>� >> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
> >>� >> �
> >>�
>><<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>\
<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
> >>� >>.
> >>� >>
> >>� >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>� >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >>
> >>� >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>� >>
> >>� >
> >>� >
> >>
> >>
> >>� [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Doug:

Fascinating indeed, yes fascinating !!!

One needs to really examine what one is doing to what end and provide the
necessary parts to cover the end product and at the same time have the necessary
protection to have a long life product.

"Green Energy" is just a politician point of view trying to reduce the CO2
footprint we are leaving on our mother nature and in this case the most
important point is the energy production at the highest possible level, reason
why the big windmills start to appear ( like 2 to 5 MW ) .

You are in a very small or a very tiny niche, this in general terms !!

You complain and complain for the lack of the availability of certain pieces of
equipment and also state that dump loads are not needed in some of the
windmills.

You or any one interested in providing windmill electrical power in such tiny
niche have to be able to provide the windmills with all the characteristics and
protections that the large windmills in the much very large niche exist .

The electrical power industry is not looking for the tiny niche very small
windmills, they are looking and wanting and getting the wind mills with the
capabilities that you want , desire or demand to have in the very tiny niche
windmill industry but with very high power energy producers .

This is the case where the windmill designer/builder = You or one like you needs
to learn to provide the windmills with the specifications and characteristics
plus the protection that the large windmills have down to the proportion of the
windmill size.

The designer/builder = You needs to learn to get or learn to design every part
that such small very tiny niche windmill system requires to be able to survive
and to be able to grow within such tiny niche.

There are inverters that are designed to take a DC voltage to certain input
maximum level that you can get right now BUT you need to know what to do to be
able to use it with your windmill, this implies a lot,

1) The generator wild variable output AC voltage single or multiphase ( like a 3
phase) that needs to be "trained" to present to the inverter a stable DC voltage
with a maximum LIMITED level .

2) You need to provide windmill protection -- which you may not be able to call
a store and ask for so many gallons or kilograms of such protection for your
windmill. -- This implies that You as a designer has to include such protection
-- the very large windmill niche do have them included in their design.

3) You may need to provide ballast load protection = dump loads, like in Europe
it is a demanded accessory to be included and maybe not present in the USA
presently. -- The large windmill industry does have the equivalent windmill
feathering -- which you could design into your very tiny niche windmills.

4) "Green Energy " may be a lot of hot air for the very small tiny niche --
though it may come down to the tiny niche if the windmill cheaters are
"filtered" from the industry as it has happened recently with a small company
highly discussed here for a long time where the CEO ? was constantly defending
the product "rated" to produce many times the Betz limits !!

5) Dump loads are needed when the windmills can produce excessive high voltage
and the generator can support the dump load while the power generation limiting
scheme takes effect ( Read = Furling  or some passive pitch control ).

Dump Loads are NOT needed when the windmill designer/builder included
characteristics and capacity to self limit its own high voltage level to be
under the maximum voltage level the inverter can accept or to be able to isolate
the inverter from such high voltage generated levels.

6) The designer/builder of the very small tiny niche windmill has to have a lot
diverse knowledge to be able to integrate all the parts that such windmill needs
to be able to survive long term and at the same time to be able to produce
energy within a wide wind velocity range .

My message to the designer/builder is that such designer/builder has to do the
proper steps to learn to produce a long life windmill and the designer/builder
has all the responsibility in getting the necessary parts to provide such
product .

I know that you are going to tell me that I am in a sense denigrating you but it
is not the case, it is the true reality of the small windmill industry present
problems where the great majority of designer/builders do not know how to
implement and finish those windmills with the proper protection and providing a
long life windmill.

"Green Energy" is the fascinating fact , presently  and soon this may include
the Fast Breeder Reactor as the true solution to reduce the  human race CO2 foot
print on this earth since it can be made from very small size to the high
megawatts levels of the regular high pressure vessels that are highly trouble
makers and highly radioactive.

There are hundreds of inverters that can be used with the windmills if the
designer/builder knows how to integrate them into the windmill generator
characteristics and its limitations. Most of the solar high voltage inverters
can be used with the windmills but one needs to know what to do it to have a
good running system.

Lastly, you are "playing" with standard because you can use a lamp bought for a
car and the spare bulb can be used in another car , that is a simple  "word
playing" standard  means that can be used in many different brands and models,
let's talk about gasoline engines for such different cars -- how many cars can
accept a Volkswagen engine , or a transmission manual or automatic .

You as a designer/builder needs to find all the parts and learn to integrate
them step by step to have a complete system and not somebody else to do your job
since you want a plug and play inverter not matter what windmill you want to
install into such unit.

Be realistic and practical, I had to do such job when I did my work and still
today if I would do such job again I would have to do all the steps to
accomplish the job with the specifications demanded by the buyer .

Nando



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Doug
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 10:29
   Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks



   OK Ian. I, like you, listen to a ton of happy-talk about "let's all get behind
green energy". "Green Jobs" are supposed to be saving our entire economy. I
mean, that IS what they say, isn't it? They DO say green energy is the most
important thing in the world, specifically, the key to our future, right? We see
millions, if not BILLIONS of dollars being thrown around, willy-nilly, at
"green" companies that everyone knows are in the process in failing (Solyndra
etc.). How much money has been given to Tesla? Don't they need green electricty
to drag all those heavy, expensive batteries around?

   I have a friend here who charges his Chevy Volt using his Bergey wind turbine
that does not use a dump load. I wonder if Chevy Volt has a dump load? I wonder
if Chevy Volt will even survive as a product, or if it is just one more
government "throw money at green energy" program that fizzles when the funding
dries up?

   Meanwhile, I live in perhaps the highest concentration of homes powered by
their own wind turbines in the world - a clear poster-child of a green-energy
future, that most people don't know exists. Do you think President Obama even
knows about Oak Hills, California? That we have almost 100% solar availability
at 3600 feet elevation? (almost no clouds ever) That you drive around and see
turbine after turbine after turbine, after turbine, all spinning, all the time?
That we get 30 mph winds almost every day?

   I guess what you mean is that all this green energy talk is just a lot of hot
air - that nobody really means anything they say - that nobody cares if small
wind takes hold. Is that it? Your point is that green energy is handed to us as
being the key to our future, but that is all bullshit because is it is just a
small niche industry that really doesn't matter to anyone? Why don't you get out
of it since you prefer solar? Why even participate if you don't care if it
advances. Are you in charge of helping to wipe it out before it really gets
started?

   For people who are INTO wind energy, who are SERIOUS about it, the components
we use MATTER. We don't think it is some trivial thing not worth mentioning when
we find the key to advancing the small wind industry, and having even ONE
inverter on the market that simply WORKS with any standard wind turbine is a key
factor to allow small wind to advance.

   As I drive around this clean and green poster-child of a
wind-and-solar-powered community, perhaps the greenest region in the world, I
see well over a hundred wind turbines spinning. Most of those are Bergey 10 kW
systems. One or two are Skystreams. None of these turbines uses a dump load. My
experimental turbine outside right now does not use a dump load. It has an
inverter designed for wind turbines. I can take you around and show you over 100
working systems, that are always spinning, and none has a dump load.

   Or we can travel out a bit further and see a few Chinese turbines that DO have
a dump load, that are sometimes working, other times sitting with missing
blades, etc. Or we can find one or two old Whisper 175 installations using old
xantrex inverters that employ a dump load and see most not working, and often
the problem is the FET's that trigger the diump load having burned out.

   So is your point that small wind is not really part of any clean and green
future? Or that the all the green energy funding should be wasted instead of
spent on good causes like even HAVING an inverter than can even take a wind
turbine as input?

   Obviously, the market has not sufficiently supported the company that went out
of business. Obviously nobody saw it as important that the manufacturer be
supported by some bailout or loan guarantee. Then again, as editor of Home Power
Magazine, did you ever do an article on DTI and let the public know that they
produced an inverter that could handle a wind turbine as input? Or did you ever
do an article explaining how wind energy systems that are reliable seldom
include a dump load while the ones that break down all the time use dump loads?

   To simply state that I have a great inverter here that works well and I would
like to see more like it, and have people like you try and find a way to argue
with it, just makes me realize once again that we in this green energy field are
running an uphill battle, with the people who should be promoti8ng wind energy
trying to slow it down, suggesting that proposing advances, or even identifying
already-achieved advances, and suggesting that we need more of what works, is
somehow out of line.

   Such a negative attitude toward progress, toward appropriate components, and
identifying what actually works, helps to drag things down, making developing
green energy like trying to run a marathon through quicksand. Green energy
development is supposed to be a sprint with cheering and people pushing it
along, not a an uphill quicksand crawl pushing the people who are supposed to be
helping out of the way as they try to hold it back.

   Instead of fighting progress, why not get on board and help me promote
progress? Then maybe small wind could be relevant. Yeah, it;ls a niche industry.
Why? No suitable inverter. Its that simple. You are describing the resulting
symptom of small wind being a niche, as a reason to not implement the cure,
which is an inverter made for small wind.

   No suitable inverter => niche industry... get it?

   Just imagine, all those wind energy innovators, having an inverter that could
just take their output without asking the turbine developer to do the inverter
developer's job! How much more likely would it be that any turbine developer
could be successful?

   I think if the people in charge want to peg our future on "clean-and-green",
there ought to be a few dollars available to develop such an inverter, or just
copy the ones that already exist.

   And mind you, this is not that complicated: The old Xantrex inverters used for
my older Bergey 10 kW system here has no dump load either. They also had a way
to just let the turbine go. And the Skystream has no dump load either. I guess
the publicly-funded eggheads who helped design that system also thought an
inverter that could handle a wind turbine was in order.

   Hey Ian, how about if your house wiring can't take a light bulb? And you are
asked to provide protection for the whole wiring system to screw in a light
bulb? Good idea huh?

   By the way, to Mike Klemen, although your reply regarding standardization of
parts between brands was off-topic, (topic: inverters that can take 3-phase
input and reject overvoltage), nevertheless, the other day my girlfriend's Dodge
PT cruiser needed a brake-light bulb. We got the 2-pack. When the front blinker
on my commercial Chevy Express 3500 van went out, I used the other bulb from the
the 2-pack, since both vehicles, different brands, different types, made on
opposite sides of the world, took the same exact part. So besides being
off-topic, your post was also factually disprovable.

   OK gotta run. I hope I have time to do anything to move small-wind forward
today. Geez I think I just wasted an hour on deaf ears. Hopefully not 100% deaf
ears.

   :)
   Doug Selsam

   --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...>
wrote:
   >
   >
   > Hi Doug,
   >
   > I think that when products don't develop and
   > succeed, it's for reasons. Usually it's because
   > there isn't enough of a market at the price. We
   > work and play in a small, niche industry. There
   > isn't gobs of money to throw around.
   >
   > As I tried to say, I have no problem with you
   > having a wish list. It's when you cross the line
   > to "someone should be doing this for me/us" that
   > you lose me. I encourage you to go after your
   > wish list -- if you build it, maybe they will
   > come. Everyone else has his/her own wish list
   > too. The marketplace decides who gets their
   > wishes, and at what price.
   >
   > I note that there are plenty of people with a
   > "grid-tie wind system that works" now, even if
   > they don't fit into your wish list. Personally,
   > I'd rather spend more time making things work,
   > and less time dreaming about what could be.
   >
   > Regards,
   >
   > Ian
   >
   >
   > >
   > >
   > >Ian:
   > >I'm posting here what I see as the obvious
   > >characteristics a grid-tie inverter for wind
   > >turbines should have, starting with the fact
   > >that it should take a common home-size wind
   > >turbine as input and ending with the fact that
   > >it should be able to protect itself.
   > >
   > >I've stated that this would enable easier
   > >development of reliable complete systems, as
   > >long as the turbine was also capable of
   > >protecting itself.
   > >
   > >I've cited as evidence that the one consistently
   > >reliable brand in common use, the Bergey 10kW
   > >system, uses such an inverter.
   > >
   > >I've also stated that I have such an inverter
   > >here, it works great, and that the company is
   > >going out of business.
   > >
   > >I can afford anything. I'm worried about system cost for people on a
budget.
   > >
   > >"We" don't "decide" what businesses do, unless
   > >we own the business. On the other hand, this
   > >internet is supposed to allow us to discuss
   > >things like what an inverter for wind turbines
   > >would be like and that we would like to see one.
   > >
   > >maybe someone from, say, NREL or the NWTC or the
   > >SWCC will read this, decide it makes sense, and
   > >in some conversation with an inverter company,
   > >let them know that nobody is really producing an
   > >inverter for wind energy at all, tell them the
   > >simple added features it would neeed to have,
   > >and maybe we could see such an inverter offered
   > >as a result.
   > >
   > >The process is communication and feedback.
   > >
   > >I guess the most mystifying part is why I have
   > >to bring this up after so many years of
   > >happy-talk about green energy. And of course
   > >those with too much t9ime on their hands has to
   > >come out of the woodwork to try and make a
   > >simple observation of a fact into some sort of
   > >argument, or an excuse to promote their pet
   > >theory.
   > >
   > >I guess your point is "Why should anyone care
   > >what anyone thinks?" or "Why should we
   > >communicate?" or "Why would you ever suggest an
   > >improvement" or "Why would you, after 10 years
   > >of beating your head against the wall in small
   > >wind, identify a major obstacle and post it on
   > >the web?"
   > >Whatever your point is, I don't see it. I want
   > >more inverters that I can plug my
   > >now-trouble-free wind turbines into and have
   > >them work, OK?
   > >I'm relating my experience and where that has
   > >led in my thoughts on what is needed in this
   > >industry.
   > >It's not just for me, it's for everyone who
   > >wants a grid-tie wind system that works.
   > >
   > >Take it for what it's worth.
   > >
   > >--- In
   > ><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
   > >Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@> wrote:
   > >>
   > >>
   > >> Hi Doug,
   > >>
   > >> I'm not sure why "we" get to decide what businesses should do.
   > >>
   > >> It seems to me that if a business can design an
   > >> inverter that pleases you, you will buy it
   > >> (though I suspect that you may decide you can't
   > >> afford it ;-) ).
   > >>
   > >> Meanwhile, each business is making its own
   > >> decisions about what products it can profitably
   > >> design and sell.
   > >>
   > >> I don't think any inverter manufacturer "asks" us
   > >> to do anything, unless it's to read the specs on
   > >> the piece of gear we voluntarily pay for, and
   > >> decide whether it's worth it to us. I suppose
   > >> they would also like us to understand its
   > >> limitations and not kill it and then blame them.
   > > >
   > >> Your house wire/light bulb example seems to
   > >> confirm my view -- the wire manufacturer produces
   > >> wire with certain ratings, and if you use it in a
   > >> way it wasn't designed for, it could fail.
   > >>
   > >> I'm with you when you suggest or even list what
   > >> qualities _you would like_ in an inverter. You
   > >> lose me when you seem to assume that there is
   > >> some obligation for someone else to design
   > >> something that you like. If there's enough demand
   > >> for a product, and someone can make it
   > >> profitably, it may happen. If very few people
   > >> want it, and aren't willing to pay for it amply,
   > >> it probably won't happen.
   > >>
   > >> Best,
   > >>
   > >> Ian
   > >>
   > >> At 7:44 PM +0000 7/29/12, Doug wrote:
   > >> >
   > >> >
   > >> >Mike:
   > >> >I didn't even mention standardization. That's
   > >> >not what I meant by "building blocks". Lest my
   > >> >point be lost, I said I think if each component
   > >> >can protect itself under all conditions, then
   > >> >they can be combined into a system that protects
   > >> >itself under all conditions.
   > >> >
   > >> >I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
   > >> >I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine
   > >> >designer is asked to protect the inverter
   > >> >because the inverters have no protection from
   > >> >the most common problem a turbine is likely to
   > >> >throw at them, either before being loaded down
   > >> >during initialization, or during a storm,
   > >> >especially if the grid goes down.
   > >> >
   > >> >The reason is because inverters were designed
   > >> >for solar, as illustrated by the fact that they
   > >> >cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the
   > >> >average turbine.
   > >> >
   > >> >Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask
   > >> >the turbine manufacturer to handle. Their
   > >> >inverters are simply not true wind turbine
   > >> >inverters. Nobody makes a true wind turbine
   > >> >inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to
   > >> >think it was just a huge problem for me, but I
   > >> >see it is really a huge problem for the entire
   > >> >industry and a main reason why this industry is
   > >> >stuck in neutral, or maybe first gear.
   > >> >
   > >> >Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb
   > >> >to provide protection for the house wiring. The
   > >> >house wiring can protect itself. If any
   > >> >appliance has a short circuit, you don't have to
   > >> >send your house back to the manufacturer for
   > >> >rewiring, because someone thought it through,
   > >> >and decided the house had to protect itself.
   > >> >They included circuit-breakers or fuses to
   > >> >properly protect the house wiring.
   > >> >
   > >> >The operative word is not "standardization" of
   > >> >components, in the sense of swapping parts
   > >> >between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in
   > >> >the sense that the bozo specifying capacitors
   > >> >that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
   > >> >error, should then realize that he needs to
   > >> >include a way to protect that component from
   > >> >that condition.
   > >> >
   > >> >It's nice to tell the turbine designer to
   > >> >include a rectifier because your inverter is
   > >> >made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage
   > >> >protection, because the sun never gets twice as
   > >> >bright, but the explanation why is always the
   > >> >same: The inverter was designed for solar and
   > >> >they just don't care about wind enough to do
   > >> >anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid
   > >> >"wind turbine interface box" and a "dump load"
   > >> >that doubles your cost, takes twice the space,
   > >> >and turns red-hot when it gets windy.
   > >> >
   > >> >So the turbine person is on their own, trying to
   > >> >do the job of the inverter designer.
   > >> >
   > >> >The standardization of car parts fitting other
   > >> >cars is there to a large extent anyway - you can
   > >> >put the same fender or Delco alternator on
   > >> >either your Camaro, or your Firebird, but
   > >> >electrical parts can fit together between brands
   > >> >even more easily, because of standardized wire
   > >> >sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
   > >> >intermediary is electricity, which is generic
   > >> >and brand-neutral.
   > >> >
   > >> >Thanks for writing.
   > >> >Doug Selsam
   > >>
><<http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com><http://www.selsam.com>http://www\
.selsam.com
   > >> >
   > >> >--- In
   > >>
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups\
.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
   > >> >Michael Klemen <wind4energy@> wrote:
   > > > >>
   > >> >> Doug,
   > >> >>
   > >> >> Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
   > >> >> because you do.� But if we take another industry and compare it to
   > >> >> wind, can it provide valuable clues?� Take the automotive industry.
   > >> >> They have been building cars 100 years.� You would think they have
   > >> >> it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
   > >> >> are easy to piece together and easy to fix.� Alas, the manufacturers
   > >> >> do not standardize much, if at all!� Are
   > >>there standard size alternators
   > >> >>
   > >> >> withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
   > >> >> auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?� Can you
   > >> >> take your pick of X number of standard
   > >>bearings?� For some reason, things
   > >> >> that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a
standard
   > >> >> configuration.� Imagine how nice it would
   > >>be to go to the auto parts store,
   > >> >> and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the
part
   > >> >> you need!� Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
   > >> >> this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
   > >> >>
   > >> >> perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
   > >> >>
   > >> >> as to why this doesn't happen?� Standardization comes at a cost.
   > >> >> What is that cost?� Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
   > >> >>
   > >> >> manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
   > >> >> shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
   > >> >> bullet proof for all turbines.� It's that
   > >> >>cost savings, likely, that prevents
   > >> >> standardization.� Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> Mike
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >> ________________________________
   > >> >> From: Doug <dougselsam@>
   > >> >> To:
   > >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > >> >> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
   > >> >> Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for
   > >>wind turbines? building blocks
   > >> >>
   > >> >> Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
   > >> >> Any developed art has building blocks that can
   > >> >>be combined into a system.� Usually each
   > >> >>building block is self-sufficient, and capable
   > >> >>of handling its own basic function, so one can
   > >> >>then combine components.
   > >> >> Not so in small wind.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> From the very beginning, I noticed that
   > >> >>research grants and certifying agencies wanted
   > >> >>to see "complete systems", including all
   > >> >>electronics, the tower, all shut-off switches,
   > >> >>cables, every single detail of a complete
   > >> >>system, specified by the turbine developer or
   > >> >>researcher.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a
   > >> >>more powerful turbine, no agency is capable of
   > >> >>simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?�
   > >> >>I imagined agencies like NREL having a bunch of
   > >> >>towers with wiring and inverters, and if you
   > >> >>had an interesting turbine they'd just call you
   > >> >>up and say: "Hey can you bring one of those
   > >> >>here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
   > >> >>
   > >> >> But no, they could only test "a complete
   > >> >>system".� It seemed like there was "something
   > >> >>wrong with this picture", like having to design
   > >> >>a complete house just to test an air
   > >> >>conditioner.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> The thing that really struck me was the number
   > >> >>of parties capable, or willing, to develop one
   > >> >>building-block, say a turbine that was capable
   > >> >>of protecting itself, was much higher than the
   > >> >>number of parties capable of developing an
   > >> >>entire system.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning
   > >> >>about airfoils, propellers and bearings, power
   > >> >>and swept area, spinning and twirling,
   > >> >>pirouetting and furling, horsepower and watts,
   > >> >>RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine
   > >> >>designer has to know.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> But I found that nobody could or would test
   > >> >>just a turbine.� They only wanted to test a
   > >> >>complete system including tower and all cabling
   > >> >>and electronics including the inverter.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> Lets assume someone had developed a 100%
   > >> >>foolproof turbine that was quiet, could never
   > > > >>burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.�
   > >> >>Nobody would have been willing to test it,
   > >> >>certify it, none of that.� Nope.� You had to
   > >> >>have "a complete system".
   > >> > >
   > >> >> At first it seemed like some hard news, but
   > >> >>perhaps reasonable.� But the real problem
   > >> >>slowly dawned on me:� No inverter was capable
   > >> >>of simply protecting itself.� No inverter was
   > >> >>"turbine-ready".� A self-sufficient inverter
   > >> >>for a wind turbine simply did not exist.� None
   > >> >>of the inverter companies seemed to care or
   > >> >>"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on
   > >> >>boxes with dump loads etc. were expensive
   > >> >>workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box
   > >> >>and a wall full of electronics to allow you to
   > >> >>screw in a light bulb.� Ridiculous.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> For years now I've been dabbling in the field
   > >> >>of electronics, to try and create more
   > >> >>affordable band-aids than the inverter
   > >> >>companies were offering, but that takes us back
   > >> >>to the basic affordability and complexity of a
   > >> >>system.�
   > >> >>
   > >> >> To me, by the time every new aspect or
   > >> >>consideration means another $1000 add-on, few
   > >> >>customers would be interested in a financially
   > >> >>top-heavy Rube Goldberg agglomeration of
   > >> >>failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot
   > >> >>every time the wind is strong.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> Additionally, asking anyone developing a
   > >> >>turbine to out-think hundreds of trained
   > >> >>electrical engineers just to get a turbine
   > >> >>tested is not realistic.� No, the answer is
   > >> >>for each component to take care of itself, then
   > >> >>they can be combined.� If a turbine can
   > >> >>protect itself under any conditions, and an
   > >> >>inverter can protect itself under any
   > >> >>conditions, then you can combine them and have
   > >> >>a system that will protect itself under any
   > >> >>conditions.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> Instead, we ask people developing turbines to
   > >> >>make up for the failure of the inverter
   > >> >>designers.� We tell the turbine developers:
   > >> >>You must supersede highly-talented electronic
   > >> >>and electrical engineers because they simply
   > >> >>cannot be expected to do their job - YOU must
   > >> >>do their job, or you are just not good enough,
   > >> >>your turbine is just not good enough, and the
   > >> >>green energy movement will stop here.� Stuck
   > >> >>in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying
   > >> >>tickets to the next trade-show to notice.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
   > >> >>
   > >> >> Hey here's a clue:
   > >> >> If we had inverters that could handle
   > >> >>themselves, anyone could develop a turbine and
   > >> >>connect it, and maybe this art would not be
   > >> >>still stuck in the same exact place it was 10
   > >> >>years ago.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> :)
   > >> >> Doug Selsam
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >> --- In
   > >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
   > >> >>"boB G" <bob@> wrote:
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > Doug is right on here, however, there are
   > >> >>add-ons for some of these inverters to do what
   > >> >>his Windy Girl does.
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > Some call it a clamp, some call it a
   > >> >>limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the voltage
   > >> >>like audio signals get clipped)
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > Did you know that SMA actually makes a
   > >> >>voltage limiter for their Windy Boy� ??� I
   > >> >>can't remember exactly what they call it but am
   > >> >>surprised that I don't here it talked about
   > >> >>more.
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > I think that� Power One makes a voltage
   > >> >>limiter for the Aurora grid tie inverter.
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that
   > >> >>consists of a long series of diodes that was
   > >> >>made for their E110 (?) that was being used
   > >> >>with Outback MX60s for a while.
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > As far as I have found, a controllable
   > >> >>limiter is best, since it can reduce RPMs when
   > >> >>the grid goes away or the batteries are full or
   > >> >>the controller or inverter is at its maximum
   > >> >>rated output power.
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a
   > >> >>built in Clipper but it makes sense that this
   > >> >>would be an external add on with the rectifiers
   > >> >>built in as well.
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > boB
   > >> >> >
   > > > >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >> > --- In
   > >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
   > >> >>"Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and
   > >> >>repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.� I've sold a few of
   > >> >>these, and own a couple more. We can program a
   > >> >>SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.� The unit is ruined
   > >> >>if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.�
   > >> >>And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind
   > >> >>turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.� I think I'm
   > >> >>just repeating myself here, implying people are
   > >> >>replying without reading my original post.
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > Thanks for again making my point, that
   > >> >>there is no grid-tie inverter available that
   > >> >>you can plug a wind turbine into and have it
   > >> >>just work.
   > >> > > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example
   > >> >of a grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
   > >> >turbine into and have it work. (nice try
   > >> >though...)
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL -
   > >> >>electronics that will protect your WindyBOY
   > >> >>inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out
   > >> >>your turbine by braking it.� I will keep
   > >> >>working on it.
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I
   > >> >>don't think either is a guarantee you won't
   > >> >>seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to
   > >> >>ruin the inverter.� I wouldn't I'd bet your
   > >> >>inverter on the idea that no gust combined with
   > >> >>a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could
   > >> >>ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
   > >> >>moment.
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > All it takes is a second of high voltage
   > >> >>to smoke the input capacitors, as they have a
   > >> >>very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
   > >> >>---zap--- - you are sending out your entire
   > >> >>inverter for repairs.� Just the shipping back
   > >> >>and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the
   > >> >>repair cost.
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a
   > >> >>mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor selling
   > >> >>battery-charging inverters that use a dump
   > >> >>load, in response to the topic of a grid-tie
   > >> >>inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
   > >> >>understanding.
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
   > >> >> > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine
   > >>that can take a Turbine as Input"
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > If you want to refute my post, saying that
   > >> >>such is not currently available, please give an
   > >> >>example and explain how it takes 3-phase input
   > >> >>and is not damaged by overvoltage.� In other
   > >> >>words, please stick to the topic and do not
   > >> >>diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > If this simple idea is too complicated for
   > >> >>anyone to even understand what I am talking
   > >> >>about, that may explain why none are available.
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > :)
   > >> >> > > Doug S.
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> > > --- In
   > >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
   > >> >>"James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �*�WindyBoy�*� ?
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > > From: Doug
   > >> >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
   > >> >> > > > To:
   > >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > >> >> > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie
   > >>Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > >�
   > >> >> > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of
   > >> >>green green green, and tried to participate.
   > >> >>Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air
   > >> >>pollution - I've heard all the reasons...
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google,
   > >> >>BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to the
   > >> >>pronouncements of (future) progress...
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and
conventions...
   > >> >> > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and
   > >> >>happy-talk, the most advanced country on Earth,
   > >> >>has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug
   > >> >>a windmill into and have it work.
   > >> >> > > > Yup that sounds about right.
   > >> >> > > >
   > > > >> > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
   > >> >> > > > I guess, just like we'll never see
   > >> >>another man on the moon, we'll never have a
   > >> >>grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all
   > >> >>those green agencies are BUSY! Busy planning
   > >> >>the next conference that will take a few more
   > >> >>million gallons of oil to get everyone there.
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > > What, you say you have a windmill and
   > >> >>want to plug it into the grid? Oh that's
   > >> >>nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >> >> > > >
   > >> >> > >
   > >> >> >
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >> ------------------------------------
   > >> >>
   > >> >> ==========================================================
   > >> >> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
   > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
   > >> >> . Please feel free to send your input to:
   > >> >> �
   >
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   > >> >> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
   > >> >> �
   > >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home-su\
bscribe%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
   > >> >> . To view previous messages from the list,
   > >> >> � subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
   > >> >> � or stop receiving the list by e-mail
   > >> > > � (and read it on the Web), go to
   > >> >> �
   > >>
>><<http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.yahoogroups.com/l\
ist/small-wind-home><http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home>http://www.\
yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home
   > >> >>.�
   > >> >> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
   > >> >> �
   > >>
>><<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>\
<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
   > >> >>.
   > >> >>
   > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
   > >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >>
   > >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >> >>
   > >> >
   > >> >
   > >>
   > >>
   > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >>
   > >
   > >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mike:
Thanks for a well-considered reply.
Not sure how much you work on cars.
I have a friend who just bought an old Jaguar.  He started to tell me how the
original V-12 engine was replaced - I finished his sentence "with a Chevy 350". 
That is "the standard" replacement.

I'm looking at a '42 Chevy.  It has a newer 327 Chevy engine with a "standard
wiring harness".  Yes they have a standard wiring harness.

Yet the real question here is not whether one can swap parts between cars, which
is possible in many cases, and not in others.

The real question is, if you plugged an accessory into the cigarette lighter
that drew too much current, would your car have a fusebox built-in, or would
they ask you to provide overcurrent protection for anything you plugged into the
cigarette lighter?  Would you need to return your car to Detroit or Korea
because you plugged something into the lighter?

What I am pointing out is simple:
Reality 1) most small turbines put out wild 3-phase AC, the voltage of which can
climb to unacceptable levels sometimes.
Reality 2) most inverters do not take 3-phase input and do not reject
overvoltage, but are instead severely damaged by overvoltage, with no
protection.

Result: difficulty for anyone to offer a grid-tie system, and a warehouse in
Arizona full of burnt-out inverters.

Therefore I believe that the industry would be well-served if an inverter could
accept 3-phase input and reject overvoltage.

I point out these 3 things on this list and mention the agencies by name to
alert them to the fact that this hole exists in our small wind world.  Before
that I was just glad to have an inverter that worked.  Then the company sent me
an e-mail saying it was going out of business.  So I'm letting people know. 
It's called "communication" and you don't have to agree... I guess.

I'm not talking about anytyhing except meeting the bare minimum requirements for
being a wind turbine inverter: be able to handle what the typical turbien dishes
out, without being damaged.

At that point the turbine developer is free to offer a turbine that works, and
if they want to add a dump load or whatever, they are certainly free to do that.

As evidence that this approach works, I cite the highest number of working
turbines in the world, all using this approach.  So I'm trying to spread the
word.

I am not asking you to develop a turbine or an inverter, but if you develop an
inverter for a wind turbine, I'd advocate that you make it so it can take the
output of a wind turbien as input and not be damaged by overvoltage before the
turbine is loaded down and ruined before it ever puts a single Watt into the
grid.  Make sense?

Sometimes I think people get so close to a subject that they make it more
complicated than it needs to be.  Sort of a "trees/forest" thing.
I'm pointing out a simple reality that I have never heard anyone talk about
before, and never heard as a targeted goal by all the multi-million-dollar
agencies that purport to have the advance of small wind as a major goal.  So I
wanted them in the loop too.

The reason I post it on this forum is I think this forum is the best way to
spread the word in the small world of small wind, whose goal is to become more
than a niche market, or so they say, which is the reason they spend so much
money on it.

Yeah it would be nice to get this industry to the point that it creates more
energy than it uses.  Unfortunately I think a lot of green programs use more
energy, not less, when all the fossil fuels needed to make green energy are
taken into account. Especially when it turns into bureaucracy getting little
done and flights around the world for conference after conference.

How much oil is used to ship a burnt-out inverter back and forth to the factory
for repairs?  How much to manufacture and ship new capacitors?

:)
Doug Selsam
(Wow another hour down the drain.... - this internet can be a bad habit)

--- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Michael Klemen <wind4energy@...> wrote:
>
> Doug,
>
>
> After my last reply, you insisted you weren't in search of standardized
> components, but everything you said after that indicates that is what
> you want.� You want a plug and play inverter for any wind turbine that is
> not battery based.� Whether the inverter disconnects the turbine or shorts
>
> it out would influence thedesign of the turbine.� So in that sense it's not
>
> a standalone component.� Your turbine design would have to be affected
> by the behavior of the inverter. Maybe that is appealing to some,
>
> and maybe it's not.� TheBergeys you keep talking about are able to be
>
> safely run when unloaded.� We cannot say that for all turbines, so it
>
> isn't so standard, then, is it?
>
>
> I appreciate your success in finding a tiny little piece of an automobile
> that is standard.� Saying there is standardization because a light bulb
> matches is like saying we have standardization with inverters because
> you can purchase the same resistors used in the internal circuitry.� Pick
> a bigger element and try again.� Gosh, maybe wind turbines are all
> standard.� They use magnets, steel and copper wiring!� How about the
>
> car's computer, wiringharness, or seats?�� Gosh, by now those should
>
> be standardized.� I think you'vemissed my point!� There is very little
that
>
> is standardized there unless youlook at a very tiny piece of the puzzle.�
>
> Can you say the wiring harnessis standardized if it uses 12 gage wire?�
>
> No.� Can you say you havea plug and play inverter because when it uses
>
> a common PC board?� Hardly.�
>
>
> Honestly, Doug, I appreciate the thought, but it sounds like you expect
> somebody else to solve these problems.� You expect that it's somebody
> else's responsibility to do this.� Why the SWCC?� They only certify
>
> turbines.� They aren't involved with design/manufacture.� Why NREL?
> They are a research lab.� Different people have different perspectives
> and different goals.� Why did NREL (I think it was NREL) get funding
> to start regional testing labs?� Why did they spend efforts on certification
> processes?� So that turbines can start getting testedand certified.�
>
> Certification should lead to better adoption by consumers,which would
>
> improve the market, and thus lower prices.� That's a differentperspective
>
> than yours on what it's going to take to make small winda viable, cost
> effective industry.� Are they wrong?� That is yet to be seen.� I happen
> to agree with that path.� That kind of infrastructure takes time to build.
>
> Maybe NREL has taken its vastexperience and done enough research
>
> to determine this building blockis the next step to a viable market.� Yet,
>
> your opinion is that they aren'tdoing the right thing.� Everybody is
entitled
>
> to their opinion.� Pleasejust don't ignore what has been done with the
>
> resources that areavailable, and the lessons that have been learned
>
> from the money thathas already been spent.� If the world had a blank
>
> check, I suspect we would havea standard inverter by now.
>
>
> Having been in small wind and blown a boat load of money on it,
> I honestly think that certification effort is far more worthwhile than
spending
>
> thatsame money on an inverter.� Why?� The consumer needs a complete
> system that works, not a single piece.� If you took half of the turbines
> that I've flown, and give me a bullet-proof inverter, that doesn't change
> the outcome.� They would still not be flying today.� I would have still
> spent a boatload of money and have nothing to show for it.� Those
>
> turbines never prevented any pollution.� In fact, they caused more
> pollution than if they never were installed!
>
> So back to your initial request...and to my opinion on the matter.
>
> You see a problem that a plug and play inverter is needed.� What
> was your goal in bringing it to the list?� Are you expecting somebody
> else to solve this problem?� Are you wanting to design it on this
> list?� Are you asking for an angel investor to help you accomplish
> this goal?� To have a successful product, you need to have at
> least 3 things...a good product, a market for it, and a price point
> that people are willing to pay.� That's just thinking about it for a
> second, not any full analysis.� Without any of the 3, it won't survive.
>
>
> I'm not into manufacturing turbines.� I don't have the resources
> to do that, so I've never seen the "problem" from your perspective.
> You've done some serious thinking about it, analyzed it and find
>
> that to be a serious challenge.� I am in no way trying to minimize
>
> the value of what you've stated and observed.� You are good at
> analyzing things and observing!� But what to do now is the question.
>
>
> Personally, from my experience, I felt my time and efforts were better
> spent in the wind industry trying to get to the point where turbines
> could be certified, with updated standards for testing that would
>
> make it possible to compare apples to apples.� It would make it
> easier for a consumer to buy a turbine, because there would be a
>
> certain degree of confidence that the turbine could survive.�
>
>
> You haven't seen me install a turbine in what, the last 10 years?�
>
> I haven't quit the industry because I haven't installed a turbine, I've just
>
> put my resources where I felt I could have the most impact.� I learned
>
> certain lessons from owning turbines and from my data acquisition
> that I could help more people avoid the problems I've had.� Sorry,
>
> I never thought about an inverter before, but that's also not my specialty,
>
> so I will leave it to somebody else to solve that problem.
>
> Mike
> p.s. I installed a "new" Proven WT2500 last year to replace the one
> the windings burned up on (the replacement I found was not incredibly
> more expensive than the windings).� The AWP 3.6 is still running, as
>
> well as the Bergey XL.1.�
>

Doug:

Though you direct the message to Mike , I am commenting  some of your
statements.

Jaguar  V-12 Engine replacement "with a Chevy 350" that is not a "standard"
replacement !!, the space , the mounts, the transmission mounts and the motor
controls have to be "adapted" with some "ADAPTERS"

The newer 327 Chevy engine with "standard wiring harness" -- they may have a
standard wiring harness BUT those harnesses are not to transmit the power of the
engine but to control and maintain the engine working properly and therefore
they are "ADAPTERS" to the engine and the car overall frame contents.

Observe that those harnesses are built by the manufacturer with the schematic
parameters duly reported and publicly described and the designer/builder has a
factory producing the same product like a "cookie" factory making them equal one
by one day by day and month by month.

I can extend myself within the car industry manufacturing -- but stopping here
-- the point is that the product in principle it made in a "cookie" factory and
a copy of a copy of a copy until the decision of producing a new different model
that my  change just a tiny bit in their "guts" but from the overall view they
seem to be equal.

You are pointing out as simple things:

Reality: The majority of the turbines put out wild 3 phase, AC, the voltage of
which can climb to unacceptable sometimes
Reality : Most inverters do not take 3-phase input and do not reject
overvoltage, but are instead severely damage by overvoltage, wit no protection.

FACT : The majority of the turbines put out wild 3-phase --
FACT the designer/builder needs to place an "adapter" to convert and to limit
the put out wild 3-phase prior "injecting " such power to the Inverter.

FACT: Most inverters may require an "ADAPTER" to convert the 3-phase AC to DC
FACT: Most inverters may require an "ADAPTER" to reject the overvoltage
generated if such is the case to protect the inverter.

FACT: You as a designer/builder set the "standard wiring harness" to
interconnect the generator, the "wild 3-phase Adapter" the "overvoltage
rejection adapter" , the " wild 3-phase pacifier adapter" and possibly "
ADAPTERS" to protect the wind mill when non loaded or overloaded .

FACT : The designer/builder has to have enough knowledge to be able to
manufacture a windmill plus generator that is properly protected in the overall
energy harvesting capabilities

This implies that if the designer/builder can not have such capabilities then it
is necessary to pay for those "ADAPTERS" to be included in the inverter design
and installed as a single "black box" instead of several smaller "black boxes".

FACT:  Do you want a good protected inverter for your wind mills ?.

THEN investigate for an inverter capable to accept certain high voltage and put
out certain power capabilities

Investigate how to take the wild 3 phase and to convert it to a certain high
voltage maximum within the capabilities of the inverter.

Investigate how to "limit" the voltage into the inverter ,

Investigate how to protect the inverter

Investigate how to protect the windmill and generator

Each step may represent a "black box"  ADAPTER -- So investigate and learn how
to implement such ADAPTERS to have a FOOLPROOF Windmill system .

Nando

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Doug
   To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 08:19
   Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks



   Hi Mike:
   Thanks for a well-considered reply.
   Not sure how much you work on cars.
   I have a friend who just bought an old Jaguar. He started to tell me how the
original V-12 engine was replaced - I finished his sentence "with a Chevy 350".
That is "the standard" replacement.

   I'm looking at a '42 Chevy. It has a newer 327 Chevy engine with a "standard
wiring harness". Yes they have a standard wiring harness.

   Yet the real question here is not whether one can swap parts between cars,
which is possible in many cases, and not in others.

   The real question is, if you plugged an accessory into the cigarette lighter
that drew too much current, would your car have a fusebox built-in, or would
they ask you to provide overcurrent protection for anything you plugged into the
cigarette lighter? Would you need to return your car to Detroit or Korea because
you plugged something into the lighter?

   What I am pointing out is simple:
   Reality 1) most small turbines put out wild 3-phase AC, the voltage of which
can climb to unacceptable levels sometimes.
   Reality 2) most inverters do not take 3-phase input and do not reject
overvoltage, but are instead severely damaged by overvoltage, with no
protection.

   Result: difficulty for anyone to offer a grid-tie system, and a warehouse in
Arizona full of burnt-out inverters.

   Therefore I believe that the industry would be well-served if an inverter
could accept 3-phase input and reject overvoltage.

   I point out these 3 things on this list and mention the agencies by name to
alert them to the fact that this hole exists in our small wind world. Before
that I was just glad to have an inverter that worked. Then the company sent me
an e-mail saying it was going out of business. So I'm letting people know. It's
called "communication" and you don't have to agree... I guess.

   I'm not talking about anytyhing except meeting the bare minimum requirements
for being a wind turbine inverter: be able to handle what the typical turbien
dishes out, without being damaged.

   At that point the turbine developer is free to offer a turbine that works, and
if they want to add a dump load or whatever, they are certainly free to do that.

   As evidence that this approach works, I cite the highest number of working
turbines in the world, all using this approach. So I'm trying to spread the
word.

   I am not asking you to develop a turbine or an inverter, but if you develop an
inverter for a wind turbine, I'd advocate that you make it so it can take the
output of a wind turbien as input and not be damaged by overvoltage before the
turbine is loaded down and ruined before it ever puts a single Watt into the
grid. Make sense?

   Sometimes I think people get so close to a subject that they make it more
complicated than it needs to be. Sort of a "trees/forest" thing.
   I'm pointing out a simple reality that I have never heard anyone talk about
before, and never heard as a targeted goal by all the multi-million-dollar
agencies that purport to have the advance of small wind as a major goal. So I
wanted them in the loop too.

   The reason I post it on this forum is I think this forum is the best way to
spread the word in the small world of small wind, whose goal is to become more
than a niche market, or so they say, which is the reason they spend so much
money on it.

   Yeah it would be nice to get this industry to the point that it creates more
energy than it uses. Unfortunately I think a lot of green programs use more
energy, not less, when all the fossil fuels needed to make green energy are
taken into account. Especially when it turns into bureaucracy getting little
done and flights around the world for conference after conference.

   How much oil is used to ship a burnt-out inverter back and forth to the
factory for repairs? How much to manufacture and ship new capacitors?

   :)
   Doug Selsam
   (Wow another hour down the drain.... - this internet can be a bad habit)

   --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Michael Klemen <wind4energy@...>
wrote:
   >
   > Doug,
   >
   >
   > After my last reply, you insisted you weren't in search of standardized
   > components, but everything you said after that indicates that is what
   > you want.� You want a plug and play inverter for any wind turbine that is
   > not battery based.� Whether the inverter disconnects the turbine or shorts
   >
   > it out would influence thedesign of the turbine.� So in that sense it's
not
   >
   > a standalone component.� Your turbine design would have to be affected
   > by the behavior of the inverter. Maybe that is appealing to some,
   >
   > and maybe it's not.� TheBergeys you keep talking about are able to be
   >
   > safely run when unloaded.� We cannot say that for all turbines, so it
   >
   > isn't so standard, then, is it?
   >
   >
   > I appreciate your success in finding a tiny little piece of an automobile
   > that is standard.� Saying there is standardization because a light bulb
   > matches is like saying we have standardization with inverters because
   > you can purchase the same resistors used in the internal circuitry.� Pick
   > a bigger element and try again.� Gosh, maybe wind turbines are all
   > standard.� They use magnets, steel and copper wiring!� How about the
   >
   > car's computer, wiringharness, or seats?�� Gosh, by now those should
   >
   > be standardized.� I think you'vemissed my point!� There is very little
that
   >
   > is standardized there unless youlook at a very tiny piece of the puzzle.�
   >
   > Can you say the wiring harnessis standardized if it uses 12 gage wire?�
   >
   > No.� Can you say you havea plug and play inverter because when it uses
   >
   > a common PC board?� Hardly.�
   >
   >
   > Honestly, Doug, I appreciate the thought, but it sounds like you expect
   > somebody else to solve these problems.� You expect that it's somebody
   > else's responsibility to do this.� Why the SWCC?� They only certify
   >
   > turbines.� They aren't involved with design/manufacture.� Why NREL?
   > They are a research lab.� Different people have different perspectives
   > and different goals.� Why did NREL (I think it was NREL) get funding
   > to start regional testing labs?� Why did they spend efforts on
certification
   > processes?� So that turbines can start getting testedand certified.�
   >
   > Certification should lead to better adoption by consumers,which would
   >
   > improve the market, and thus lower prices.� That's a differentperspective
   >
   > than yours on what it's going to take to make small winda viable, cost
   > effective industry.� Are they wrong?� That is yet to be seen.� I
happen
   > to agree with that path.� That kind of infrastructure takes time to build.
   >
   > Maybe NREL has taken its vastexperience and done enough research
   >
   > to determine this building blockis the next step to a viable market.� Yet,
   >
   > your opinion is that they aren'tdoing the right thing.� Everybody is
entitled
   >
   > to their opinion.� Pleasejust don't ignore what has been done with the
   >
   > resources that areavailable, and the lessons that have been learned
   >
   > from the money thathas already been spent.� If the world had a blank
   >
   > check, I suspect we would havea standard inverter by now.
   >
   >
   > Having been in small wind and blown a boat load of money on it,
   > I honestly think that certification effort is far more worthwhile than
spending
   >
   > thatsame money on an inverter.� Why?� The consumer needs a complete
   > system that works, not a single piece.� If you took half of the turbines
   > that I've flown, and give me a bullet-proof inverter, that doesn't change
   > the outcome.� They would still not be flying today.� I would have still
   > spent a boatload of money and have nothing to show for it.� Those
   >
   > turbines never prevented any pollution.� In fact, they caused more
   > pollution than if they never were installed!
   >
   > So back to your initial request...and to my opinion on the matter.
   >
   > You see a problem that a plug and play inverter is needed.� What
   > was your goal in bringing it to the list?� Are you expecting somebody
   > else to solve this problem?� Are you wanting to design it on this
   > list?� Are you asking for an angel investor to help you accomplish
   > this goal?� To have a successful product, you need to have at
   > least 3 things...a good product, a market for it, and a price point
   > that people are willing to pay.� That's just thinking about it for a
   > second, not any full analysis.� Without any of the 3, it won't survive.
   >
   >
   > I'm not into manufacturing turbines.� I don't have the resources
   > to do that, so I've never seen the "problem" from your perspective.
   > You've done some serious thinking about it, analyzed it and find
   >
   > that to be a serious challenge.� I am in no way trying to minimize
   >
   > the value of what you've stated and observed.� You are good at
   > analyzing things and observing!� But what to do now is the question.
   >
   >
   > Personally, from my experience, I felt my time and efforts were better
   > spent in the wind industry trying to get to the point where turbines
   > could be certified, with updated standards for testing that would
   >
   > make it possible to compare apples to apples.� It would make it
   > easier for a consumer to buy a turbine, because there would be a
   >
   > certain degree of confidence that the turbine could survive.�
   >
   >
   > You haven't seen me install a turbine in what, the last 10 years?�
   >
   > I haven't quit the industry because I haven't installed a turbine, I've just
   >
   > put my resources where I felt I could have the most impact.� I learned
   >
   > certain lessons from owning turbines and from my data acquisition
   > that I could help more people avoid the problems I've had.� Sorry,
   >
   > I never thought about an inverter before, but that's also not my specialty,
   >
   > so I will leave it to somebody else to solve that problem.
   >
   > Mike
   > p.s. I installed a "new" Proven WT2500 last year to replace the one
   > the windings burned up on (the replacement I found was not incredibly
   > more expensive than the windings).� The AWP 3.6 is still running, as
   >
   > well as the Bergey XL.1.�
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.treehugger.com/wind-technology/new-bladeless-wind-turbine-claimed-be-\
twice-efficient-conventional-designs.html

Above is the link for the following story e-mailed to me this morning by the
AWEA: (WindEnergy SmartBrief August 6, 2012 subheading: Economy, Energy &
Trends)

"Tunisian company touts blade-less wind turbine
Tunisia-based Saphon Energy is looking for partners to commercialize its
innovative, blade-less wind-harvesting system. Saphon said that its turbine
would be more efficient than traditional turbines, whose design is constrained
by the Betz limit, which states that turbines can convert only 59.3% of the
wind's kinetic energy into power. Saphon's turbine would also be cheaper than
conventional turbines mainly because it has no blades, hub or gearbox, the
company said."

I think we have finally found the perfect turbine.  Can you guess, it beats
Betz! (Why?  Cuz they say so, that's why!), is way more efficient than existing
designs (cuz they say so!), of course is less expensive, is quieter!  Is
bird-friendly you evil bird-killer! Blades?  We don't need no steenkin' blades! 
And with no blades, why would we need a hub, gearbox or any of that other crap
we can't understand?  Just shut up it's more than twice as efficient as a GE
turbine and you are NOT to question it.  Got it?  Any Questions?good.
Now please pass the word.

My God, this doubling of power AND halving of cost came along at just the right
time since the PCT might expire any day now taking wind energy off welfare. 
What's next, no mo food stamps for solar?

boy when you think about it - doubling power AND halving costs means this baby
can deliver wind-power at 1/4 the cost.  So I think the industry will survive
now even with no PCT.  Whew that was close.

Thanks for a good laugh AWEA!  I wonder if the AWEA employee who placed this
article understands that they just started the comedy section of AWEA WindEnergy
SmartBrief?  Definitely good for a laugh!
:)
Doug Selsam

Indeed Doug, utter nonsense,
at least about there efficiency

there only vid strait on YouTube: www.youtube.com/watch?v=68x-1X6tRls
Here's their website: www.saphonenergy.com/index.php
Here's their patent :
http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2012039688&recNum=25&do\
cAn=TN2010000005&queryString=%28IC/F03D%29%2520&maxRec=4314
if this link ain't working search for WO/2012/039688

Probably looking for peeps with lots of cash to invest in there crap,
... & not to much brains or knowledge.

;-)
Bruno M.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Op 6-8-2012 22:39, Doug schreef:
>
>
http://www.treehugger.com/wind-technology/new-bladeless-wind-turbine-claimed-be-\
twice-efficient-conventional-designs.html
>
> Above is the link for the following story e-mailed to me this morning
> by the AWEA: (WindEnergy SmartBrief August 6, 2012 subheading:
> Economy, Energy & Trends)
>
> "Tunisian company touts blade-less wind turbine
> Tunisia-based Saphon Energy is looking for partners to commercialize
> its innovative, blade-less wind-harvesting system. Saphon said that
> its turbine would be more efficient than traditional turbines, whose
> design is constrained by the Betz limit, which states that turbines
> can convert only 59.3% of the wind's kinetic energy into power.
> Saphon's turbine would also be cheaper than conventional turbines
> mainly because it has no blades, hub or gearbox, the company said."
>
> I think we have finally found the perfect turbine. Can you guess, it
> beats Betz! (Why? Cuz they say so, that's why!), is way more efficient
> than existing designs (cuz they say so!), of course is less expensive,
> is quieter! Is bird-friendly you evil bird-killer! Blades? We don't
> need no steenkin' blades! And with no blades, why would we need a hub,
> gearbox or any of that other crap we can't understand? Just shut up
> it's more than twice as efficient as a GE turbine and you are NOT to
> question it. Got it? Any Questions?good.
> Now please pass the word.
>
> My God, this doubling of power AND halving of cost came along at just
> the right time since the PCT might expire any day now taking wind
> energy off welfare. What's next, no mo food stamps for solar?
>
> boy when you think about it - doubling power AND halving costs means
> this baby can deliver wind-power at 1/4 the cost. So I think the
> industry will survive now even with no PCT. Whew that was close.
>
> Thanks for a good laugh AWEA! I wonder if the AWEA employee who placed
> this article understands that they just started the comedy section of
> AWEA WindEnergy SmartBrief? Definitely good for a laugh!
> :)
> Doug Selsam
>
> ==================================================


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is useful to separate the dump load control from the dump load resistor, etc.
through a systems approach.  I say "resistor" becoause the load could be an
element in a solar hot water heater to cover cloudy days. Perhaps the same grade
of a second 240V/120V rod element running on wild a.c. or d.c.



The water heater must have an anti-scald valve to limit the outgoing water
temperature, so if the tank temperature gets too high, the solar system shuts
down and the wind "heater" dump load can still work. There may be a recreational
vehicle 12V heater rod available as a direcdt fit. Since the small wind turbine
can't generate a lot of dump power, there are many tradeoffs to examine.



Frank

________________________________
From: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] on
behalf of Nando [nando37@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 9:43 AM
To: SWH
Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks



Doug:

Fascinating indeed, yes fascinating !!!

One needs to really examine what one is doing to what end and provide the
necessary parts to cover the end product and at the same time have the necessary
protection to have a long life product.

"Green Energy" is just a politician point of view trying to reduce the CO2
footprint we are leaving on our mother nature and in this case the most
important point is the energy production at the highest possible level, reason
why the big windmills start to appear ( like 2 to 5 MW ) .

You are in a very small or a very tiny niche, this in general terms !!

You complain and complain for the lack of the availability of certain pieces of
equipment and also state that dump loads are not needed in some of the
windmills.

You or any one interested in providing windmill electrical power in such tiny
niche have to be able to provide the windmills with all the characteristics and
protections that the large windmills in the much very large niche exist .

The electrical power industry is not looking for the tiny niche very small
windmills, they are looking and wanting and getting the wind mills with the
capabilities that you want , desire or demand to have in the very tiny niche
windmill industry but with very high power energy producers .

This is the case where the windmill designer/builder = You or one like you needs
to learn to provide the windmills with the specifications and characteristics
plus the protection that the large windmills have down to the proportion of the
windmill size.

The designer/builder = You needs to learn to get or learn to design every part
that such small very tiny niche windmill system requires to be able to survive
and to be able to grow within such tiny niche.

There are inverters that are designed to take a DC voltage to certain input
maximum level that you can get right now BUT you need to know what to do to be
able to use it with your windmill, this implies a lot,

1) The generator wild variable output AC voltage single or multiphase ( like a 3
phase) that needs to be "trained" to present to the inverter a stable DC voltage
with a maximum LIMITED level .

2) You need to provide windmill protection -- which you may not be able to call
a store and ask for so many gallons or kilograms of such protection for your
windmill. -- This implies that You as a designer has to include such protection
-- the very large windmill niche do have them included in their design.

3) You may need to provide ballast load protection = dump loads, like in Europe
it is a demanded accessory to be included and maybe not present in the USA
presently. -- The large windmill industry does have the equivalent windmill
feathering -- which you could design into your very tiny niche windmills.

4) "Green Energy " may be a lot of hot air for the very small tiny niche --
though it may come down to the tiny niche if the windmill cheaters are
"filtered" from the industry as it has happened recently with a small company
highly discussed here for a long time where the CEO ? was constantly defending
the product "rated" to produce many times the Betz limits !!

5) Dump loads are needed when the windmills can produce excessive high voltage
and the generator can support the dump load while the power generation limiting
scheme takes effect ( Read = Furling or some passive pitch control ).

Dump Loads are NOT needed when the windmill designer/builder included
characteristics and capacity to self limit its own high voltage level to be
under the maximum voltage level the inverter can accept or to be able to isolate
the inverter from such high voltage generated levels.

6) The designer/builder of the very small tiny niche windmill has to have a lot
diverse knowledge to be able to integrate all the parts that such windmill needs
to be able to survive long term and at the same time to be able to produce
energy within a wide wind velocity range .

My message to the designer/builder is that such designer/builder has to do the
proper steps to learn to produce a long life windmill and the designer/builder
has all the responsibility in getting the necessary parts to provide such
product .

I know that you are going to tell me that I am in a sense denigrating you but it
is not the case, it is the true reality of the small windmill industry present
problems where the great majority of designer/builders do not know how to
implement and finish those windmills with the proper protection and providing a
long life windmill.

"Green Energy" is the fascinating fact , presently and soon this may include the
Fast Breeder Reactor as the true solution to reduce the human race CO2 foot
print on this earth since it can be made from very small size to the high
megawatts levels of the regular high pressure vessels that are highly trouble
makers and highly radioactive.

There are hundreds of inverters that can be used with the windmills if the
designer/builder knows how to integrate them into the windmill generator
characteristics and its limitations. Most of the solar high voltage inverters
can be used with the windmills but one needs to know what to do it to have a
good running system.

Lastly, you are "playing" with standard because you can use a lamp bought for a
car and the spare bulb can be used in another car , that is a simple "word
playing" standard means that can be used in many different brands and models,
let's talk about gasoline engines for such different cars -- how many cars can
accept a Volkswagen engine , or a transmission manual or automatic .

You as a designer/builder needs to find all the parts and learn to integrate
them step by step to have a complete system and not somebody else to do your job
since you want a plug and play inverter not matter what windmill you want to
install into such unit.

Be realistic and practical, I had to do such job when I did my work and still
today if I would do such job again I would have to do all the steps to
accomplish the job with the specifications demanded by the buyer .

Nando

----- Original Message -----
From: Doug
To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 10:29
Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for wind turbines? building blocks

OK Ian. I, like you, listen to a ton of happy-talk about "let's all get behind
green energy". "Green Jobs" are supposed to be saving our entire economy. I
mean, that IS what they say, isn't it? They DO say green energy is the most
important thing in the world, specifically, the key to our future, right? We see
millions, if not BILLIONS of dollars being thrown around, willy-nilly, at
"green" companies that everyone knows are in the process in failing (Solyndra
etc.). How much money has been given to Tesla? Don't they need green electricty
to drag all those heavy, expensive batteries around?

I have a friend here who charges his Chevy Volt using his Bergey wind turbine
that does not use a dump load. I wonder if Chevy Volt has a dump load? I wonder
if Chevy Volt will even survive as a product, or if it is just one more
government "throw money at green energy" program that fizzles when the funding
dries up?

Meanwhile, I live in perhaps the highest concentration of homes powered by their
own wind turbines in the world - a clear poster-child of a green-energy future,
that most people don't know exists. Do you think President Obama even knows
about Oak Hills, California? That we have almost 100% solar availability at 3600
feet elevation? (almost no clouds ever) That you drive around and see turbine
after turbine after turbine, after turbine, all spinning, all the time? That we
get 30 mph winds almost every day?

I guess what you mean is that all this green energy talk is just a lot of hot
air - that nobody really means anything they say - that nobody cares if small
wind takes hold. Is that it? Your point is that green energy is handed to us as
being the key to our future, but that is all bullshit because is it is just a
small niche industry that really doesn't matter to anyone? Why don't you get out
of it since you prefer solar? Why even participate if you don't care if it
advances. Are you in charge of helping to wipe it out before it really gets
started?

For people who are INTO wind energy, who are SERIOUS about it, the components we
use MATTER. We don't think it is some trivial thing not worth mentioning when we
find the key to advancing the small wind industry, and having even ONE inverter
on the market that simply WORKS with any standard wind turbine is a key factor
to allow small wind to advance.

As I drive around this clean and green poster-child of a wind-and-solar-powered
community, perhaps the greenest region in the world, I see well over a hundred
wind turbines spinning. Most of those are Bergey 10 kW systems. One or two are
Skystreams. None of these turbines uses a dump load. My experimental turbine
outside right now does not use a dump load. It has an inverter designed for wind
turbines. I can take you around and show you over 100 working systems, that are
always spinning, and none has a dump load.

Or we can travel out a bit further and see a few Chinese turbines that DO have a
dump load, that are sometimes working, other times sitting with missing blades,
etc. Or we can find one or two old Whisper 175 installations using old xantrex
inverters that employ a dump load and see most not working, and often the
problem is the FET's that trigger the diump load having burned out.

So is your point that small wind is not really part of any clean and green
future? Or that the all the green energy funding should be wasted instead of
spent on good causes like even HAVING an inverter than can even take a wind
turbine as input?

Obviously, the market has not sufficiently supported the company that went out
of business. Obviously nobody saw it as important that the manufacturer be
supported by some bailout or loan guarantee. Then again, as editor of Home Power
Magazine, did you ever do an article on DTI and let the public know that they
produced an inverter that could handle a wind turbine as input? Or did you ever
do an article explaining how wind energy systems that are reliable seldom
include a dump load while the ones that break down all the time use dump loads?

To simply state that I have a great inverter here that works well and I would
like to see more like it, and have people like you try and find a way to argue
with it, just makes me realize once again that we in this green energy field are
running an uphill battle, with the people who should be promoti8ng wind energy
trying to slow it down, suggesting that proposing advances, or even identifying
already-achieved advances, and suggesting that we need more of what works, is
somehow out of line.

Such a negative attitude toward progress, toward appropriate components, and
identifying what actually works, helps to drag things down, making developing
green energy like trying to run a marathon through quicksand. Green energy
development is supposed to be a sprint with cheering and people pushing it
along, not a an uphill quicksand crawl pushing the people who are supposed to be
helping out of the way as they try to hold it back.

Instead of fighting progress, why not get on board and help me promote progress?
Then maybe small wind could be relevant. Yeah, it;ls a niche industry. Why? No
suitable inverter. Its that simple. You are describing the resulting symptom of
small wind being a niche, as a reason to not implement the cure, which is an
inverter made for small wind.

No suitable inverter => niche industry... get it?

Just imagine, all those wind energy innovators, having an inverter that could
just take their output without asking the turbine developer to do the inverter
developer's job! How much more likely would it be that any turbine developer
could be successful?

I think if the people in charge want to peg our future on "clean-and-green",
there ought to be a few dollars available to develop such an inverter, or just
copy the ones that already exist.

And mind you, this is not that complicated: The old Xantrex inverters used for
my older Bergey 10 kW system here has no dump load either. They also had a way
to just let the turbine go. And the Skystream has no dump load either. I guess
the publicly-funded eggheads who helped design that system also thought an
inverter that could handle a wind turbine was in order.

Hey Ian, how about if your house wiring can't take a light bulb? And you are
asked to provide protection for the whole wiring system to screw in a light
bulb? Good idea huh?

By the way, to Mike Klemen, although your reply regarding standardization of
parts between brands was off-topic, (topic: inverters that can take 3-phase
input and reject overvoltage), nevertheless, the other day my girlfriend's Dodge
PT cruiser needed a brake-light bulb. We got the 2-pack. When the front blinker
on my commercial Chevy Express 3500 van went out, I used the other bulb from the
the 2-pack, since both vehicles, different brands, different types, made on
opposite sides of the world, took the same exact part. So besides being
off-topic, your post was also factually disprovable.

OK gotta run. I hope I have time to do anything to move small-wind forward
today. Geez I think I just wasted an hour on deaf ears. Hopefully not 100% deaf
ears.

:)
Doug Selsam

--- In
small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Ian
Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I think that when products don't develop and
> succeed, it's for reasons. Usually it's because
> there isn't enough of a market at the price. We
> work and play in a small, niche industry. There
> isn't gobs of money to throw around.
>
> As I tried to say, I have no problem with you
> having a wish list. It's when you cross the line
> to "someone should be doing this for me/us" that
> you lose me. I encourage you to go after your
> wish list -- if you build it, maybe they will
> come. Everyone else has his/her own wish list
> too. The marketplace decides who gets their
> wishes, and at what price.
>
> I note that there are plenty of people with a
> "grid-tie wind system that works" now, even if
> they don't fit into your wish list. Personally,
> I'd rather spend more time making things work,
> and less time dreaming about what could be.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian
>
>
> >
> >
> >Ian:
> >I'm posting here what I see as the obvious
> >characteristics a grid-tie inverter for wind
> >turbines should have, starting with the fact
> >that it should take a common home-size wind
> >turbine as input and ending with the fact that
> >it should be able to protect itself.
> >
> >I've stated that this would enable easier
> >development of reliable complete systems, as
> >long as the turbine was also capable of
> >protecting itself.
> >
> >I've cited as evidence that the one consistently
> >reliable brand in common use, the Bergey 10kW
> >system, uses such an inverter.
> >
> >I've also stated that I have such an inverter
> >here, it works great, and that the company is
> >going out of business.
> >
> >I can afford anything. I'm worried about system cost for people on a budget.
> >
> >"We" don't "decide" what businesses do, unless
> >we own the business. On the other hand, this
> >internet is supposed to allow us to discuss
> >things like what an inverter for wind turbines
> >would be like and that we would like to see one.
> >
> >maybe someone from, say, NREL or the NWTC or the
> >SWCC will read this, decide it makes sense, and
> >in some conversation with an inverter company,
> >let them know that nobody is really producing an
> >inverter for wind energy at all, tell them the
> >simple added features it would neeed to have,
> >and maybe we could see such an inverter offered
> >as a result.
> >
> >The process is communication and feedback.
> >
> >I guess the most mystifying part is why I have
> >to bring this up after so many years of
> >happy-talk about green energy. And of course
> >those with too much t9ime on their hands has to
> >come out of the woodwork to try and make a
> >simple observation of a fact into some sort of
> >argument, or an excuse to promote their pet
> >theory.
> >
> >I guess your point is "Why should anyone care
> >what anyone thinks?" or "Why should we
> >communicate?" or "Why would you ever suggest an
> >improvement" or "Why would you, after 10 years
> >of beating your head against the wall in small
> >wind, identify a major obstacle and post it on
> >the web?"
> >Whatever your point is, I don't see it. I want
> >more inverters that I can plug my
> >now-trouble-free wind turbines into and have
> >them work, OK?
> >I'm relating my experience and where that has
> >led in my thoughts on what is needed in this
> >industry.
> >It's not just for me, it's for everyone who
> >wants a grid-tie wind system that works.
> >
> >Take it for what it's worth.
> >
> >--- In
>
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailt\
o:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>,
> >Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Doug,
> >>
> >> I'm not sure why "we" get to decide what businesses should do.
> >>
> >> It seems to me that if a business can design an
> >> inverter that pleases you, you will buy it
> >> (though I suspect that you may decide you can't
> >> afford it ;-) ).
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, each business is making its own
> >> decisions about what products it can profitably
> >> design and sell.
> >>
> >> I don't think any inverter manufacturer "asks" us
> >> to do anything, unless it's to read the specs on
> >> the piece of gear we voluntarily pay for, and
> >> decide whether it's worth it to us. I suppose
> >> they would also like us to understand its
> >> limitations and not kill it and then blame them.
> > >
> >> Your house wire/light bulb example seems to
> >> confirm my view -- the wire manufacturer produces
> >> wire with certain ratings, and if you use it in a
> >> way it wasn't designed for, it could fail.
> >>
> >> I'm with you when you suggest or even list what
> >> qualities _you would like_ in an inverter. You
> >> lose me when you seem to assume that there is
> >> some obligation for someone else to design
> >> something that you like. If there's enough demand
> >> for a product, and someone can make it
> >> profitably, it may happen. If very few people
> >> want it, and aren't willing to pay for it amply,
> >> it probably won't happen.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Ian
> >>
> >> At 7:44 PM +0000 7/29/12, Doug wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Mike:
> >> >I didn't even mention standardization. That's
> >> >not what I meant by "building blocks". Lest my
> >> >point be lost, I said I think if each component
> >> >can protect itself under all conditions, then
> >> >they can be combined into a system that protects
> >> >itself under all conditions.
> >> >
> >> >I'm pointing out that inverters don't protect themselves.
> >> >I'm broadcasting my observation that the turbine
> >> >designer is asked to protect the inverter
> >> >because the inverters have no protection from
> >> >the most common problem a turbine is likely to
> >> >throw at them, either before being loaded down
> >> >during initialization, or during a storm,
> >> >especially if the grid goes down.
> >> >
> >> >The reason is because inverters were designed
> >> >for solar, as illustrated by the fact that they
> >> >cannot even accept the 3-phase input of the
> >> >average turbine.
> >> >
> >> >Rectifying the wild AC is one more job they ask
> >> >the turbine manufacturer to handle. Their
> >> >inverters are simply not true wind turbine
> >> >inverters. Nobody makes a true wind turbine
> >> >inverter. That is a huge problem. I used to
> >> >think it was just a huge problem for me, but I
> >> >see it is really a huge problem for the entire
> >> >industry and a main reason why this industry is
> >> >stuck in neutral, or maybe first gear.
> >> >
> >> >Your house wiring does not ask your light bulb
> >> >to provide protection for the house wiring. The
> >> >house wiring can protect itself. If any
> >> >appliance has a short circuit, you don't have to
> >> >send your house back to the manufacturer for
> >> >rewiring, because someone thought it through,
> >> >and decided the house had to protect itself.
> >> >They included circuit-breakers or fuses to
> >> >properly protect the house wiring.
> >> >
> >> >The operative word is not "standardization" of
> >> >components, in the sense of swapping parts
> >> >between brands, but rather "self-sufficiency" in
> >> >the sense that the bozo specifying capacitors
> >> >that blow at say 500 Volts, with no margin of
> >> >error, should then realize that he needs to
> >> >include a way to protect that component from
> >> >that condition.
> >> >
> >> >It's nice to tell the turbine designer to
> >> >include a rectifier because your inverter is
> >> >made for DC solar, and to include overvoltage
> >> >protection, because the sun never gets twice as
> >> >bright, but the explanation why is always the
> >> >same: The inverter was designed for solar and
> >> >they just don't care about wind enough to do
> >> >anything about it except maybe offer a band-aid
> >> >"wind turbine interface box" and a "dump load"
> >> >that doubles your cost, takes twice the space,
> >> >and turns red-hot when it gets windy.
> >> >
> >> >So the turbine person is on their own, trying to
> >> >do the job of the inverter designer.
> >> >
> >> >The standardization of car parts fitting other
> >> >cars is there to a large extent anyway - you can
> >> >put the same fender or Delco alternator on
> >> >either your Camaro, or your Firebird, but
> >> >electrical parts can fit together between brands
> >> >even more easily, because of standardized wire
> >> >sizes and connectors, and the fact that the
> >> >intermediary is electricity, which is generic
> >> >and brand-neutral.
> >> >
> >> >Thanks for writing.
> >> >Doug Selsam
> >>
><<http://www.selsam.com>http://www.selsam.com><http://www.selsam.com>http://www\
.selsam.com
> >> >
> >> >--- In
> >>
><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups\
.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>,
> >> >Michael Klemen <wind4energy@> wrote:
> > > >>
> >> >> Doug,
> >> >>
> >> >> Now I'm not going to say that I don't think you raise a valid point,
> >> >> because you do.� But if we take another industry and compare it to
> >> >> wind, can it provide valuable clues?� Take the automotive industry.
> >> >> They have been building cars 100 years.� You would think they have
> >> >> it together, and everybody would use the same parts so that things
> >> >> are easy to piece together and easy to fix.� Alas, the manufacturers
> >> >> do not standardize much, if at all!� Are
> >>there standard size alternators
> >> >>
> >> >> withstandard mounting configurations, such that you can just go to the
> >> >> auto parts store and take your pick of 6 stock alternators?� Can you
> >> >> take your pick of X number of standard
> >>bearings?� For some reason, things
> >> >> that we could all benefit from being standard doesn't exist in a
standard
> >> >> configuration.� Imagine how nice it would
> >>be to go to the auto parts store,
> >> >> and know, without a shadow of a doubt, they will have in stock the part
> >> >> you need!� Maybe the expectation is very good that we should have
> >> >> this type of standardization as a reality in wind as well as auto is
> >> >>
> >> >> perfectly valid, but maybe we have to ask the corollary question
> >> >>
> >> >> as to why this doesn't happen?� Standardization comes at a cost.
> >> >> What is that cost?� Maybe a bullet proof inverter costs more than
> >> >>
> >> >> manufacterer X wants to pay for, so they take some engineering
> >> >> shortcuts to deliver only what they need, such that it is no longer
> >> >> bullet proof for all turbines.� It's that
> >> >>cost savings, likely, that prevents
> >> >> standardization.� Frustrating, true, but reality, I think.
> >> >>
> >> >> Mike
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ________________________________
> >> >> From: Doug <dougselsam@>
> >> >> To:
> >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> >> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:40 AM
> >> >> Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie Inverters for
> >>wind turbines? building blocks
> >> >>
> >> >> Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned:
> >> >> Any developed art has building blocks that can
> >> >>be combined into a system.� Usually each
> >> >>building block is self-sufficient, and capable
> >> >>of handling its own basic function, so one can
> >> >>then combine components.
> >> >> Not so in small wind.
> >> >>
> >> >> From the very beginning, I noticed that
> >> >>research grants and certifying agencies wanted
> >> >>to see "complete systems", including all
> >> >>electronics, the tower, all shut-off switches,
> >> >>cables, every single detail of a complete
> >> >>system, specified by the turbine developer or
> >> >>researcher.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'd wonder: You mean if someone develops a
> >> >>more powerful turbine, no agency is capable of
> >> >>simply mounting it on a tower and testing it?�
> >> >>I imagined agencies like NREL having a bunch of
> >> >>towers with wiring and inverters, and if you
> >> >>had an interesting turbine they'd just call you
> >> >>up and say: "Hey can you bring one of those
> >> >>here so we can slap it on a tower and test it?".
> >> >>
> >> >> But no, they could only test "a complete
> >> >>system".� It seemed like there was "something
> >> >>wrong with this picture", like having to design
> >> >>a complete house just to test an air
> >> >>conditioner.
> >> >>
> >> >> The thing that really struck me was the number
> >> >>of parties capable, or willing, to develop one
> >> >>building-block, say a turbine that was capable
> >> >>of protecting itself, was much higher than the
> >> >>number of parties capable of developing an
> >> >>entire system.
> >> >>
> >> >> For example, I'd spent a lot of time learning
> >> >>about airfoils, propellers and bearings, power
> >> >>and swept area, spinning and twirling,
> >> >>pirouetting and furling, horsepower and watts,
> >> >>RPM and volts - all the stuff a turbine
> >> >>designer has to know.
> >> >>
> >> >> But I found that nobody could or would test
> >> >>just a turbine.� They only wanted to test a
> >> >>complete system including tower and all cabling
> >> >>and electronics including the inverter.
> >> >>
> >> >> Lets assume someone had developed a 100%
> >> >>foolproof turbine that was quiet, could never
> > > >>burn out a stator, powerful and reliable.�
> >> >>Nobody would have been willing to test it,
> >> >>certify it, none of that.� Nope.� You had to
> >> >>have "a complete system".
> >> > >
> >> >> At first it seemed like some hard news, but
> >> >>perhaps reasonable.� But the real problem
> >> >>slowly dawned on me:� No inverter was capable
> >> >>of simply protecting itself.� No inverter was
> >> >>"turbine-ready".� A self-sufficient inverter
> >> >>for a wind turbine simply did not exist.� None
> >> >>of the inverter companies seemed to care or
> >> >>"get it", and the number of band-aid, add-on
> >> >>boxes with dump loads etc. were expensive
> >> >>workarounds, like buying a special $2000 box
> >> >>and a wall full of electronics to allow you to
> >> >>screw in a light bulb.� Ridiculous.
> >> >>
> >> >> For years now I've been dabbling in the field
> >> >>of electronics, to try and create more
> >> >>affordable band-aids than the inverter
> >> >>companies were offering, but that takes us back
> >> >>to the basic affordability and complexity of a
> >> >>system.�
> >> >>
> >> >> To me, by the time every new aspect or
> >> >>consideration means another $1000 add-on, few
> >> >>customers would be interested in a financially
> >> >>top-heavy Rube Goldberg agglomeration of
> >> >>failure-prone band-aids designed to get red-hot
> >> >>every time the wind is strong.
> >> >>
> >> >> Additionally, asking anyone developing a
> >> >>turbine to out-think hundreds of trained
> >> >>electrical engineers just to get a turbine
> >> >>tested is not realistic.� No, the answer is
> >> >>for each component to take care of itself, then
> >> >>they can be combined.� If a turbine can
> >> >>protect itself under any conditions, and an
> >> >>inverter can protect itself under any
> >> >>conditions, then you can combine them and have
> >> >>a system that will protect itself under any
> >> >>conditions.
> >> >>
> >> >> Instead, we ask people developing turbines to
> >> >>make up for the failure of the inverter
> >> >>designers.� We tell the turbine developers:
> >> >>You must supersede highly-talented electronic
> >> >>and electrical engineers because they simply
> >> >>cannot be expected to do their job - YOU must
> >> >>do their job, or you are just not good enough,
> >> >>your turbine is just not good enough, and the
> >> >>green energy movement will stop here.� Stuck
> >> >>in quicksand, and everyone is too busy buying
> >> >>tickets to the next trade-show to notice.
> >> >>
> >> >> Then everyone wonders "What's wrong?"
> >> >>
> >> >> Hey here's a clue:
> >> >> If we had inverters that could handle
> >> >>themselves, anyone could develop a turbine and
> >> >>connect it, and maybe this art would not be
> >> >>still stuck in the same exact place it was 10
> >> >>years ago.
> >> >>
> >> >> :)
> >> >> Doug Selsam
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --- In
> >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>,
> >> >>"boB G" <bob@> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Doug is right on here, however, there are
> >> >>add-ons for some of these inverters to do what
> >> >>his Windy Girl does.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Some call it a clamp, some call it a
> >> >>limiter, I call it a Clipper (clips the voltage
> >> >>like audio signals get clipped)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Did you know that SMA actually makes a
> >> >>voltage limiter for their Windy Boy� ??� I
> >> >>can't remember exactly what they call it but am
> >> >>surprised that I don't here it talked about
> >> >>more.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think that� Power One makes a voltage
> >> >>limiter for the Aurora grid tie inverter.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Kestrel has a voltage limiter as well that
> >> >>consists of a long series of diodes that was
> >> >>made for their E110 (?) that was being used
> >> >>with Outback MX60s for a while.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > As far as I have found, a controllable
> >> >>limiter is best, since it can reduce RPMs when
> >> >>the grid goes away or the batteries are full or
> >> >>the controller or inverter is at its maximum
> >> >>rated output power.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > AFAIK, there are no inverters (yet) with a
> >> >>built in Clipper but it makes sense that this
> >> >>would be an external add on with the rectifiers
> >> >>built in as well.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > boB
> >> >> >
> > > >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- In
> >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>,
> >> >>"Doug" <dougselsam@> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > SMA WindyBOY is a reprogrammed and
> >> >>repackaged SMA SunnyBOY.� I've sold a few of
> >> >>these, and own a couple more. We can program a
> >> >>SunnyBOY into a WindyBOY.� The unit is ruined
> >> >>if you briefly hit it with too much voltage.�
> >> >>And WindyBOY takes DC input whereas a wind
> >> >>turbine outputs wild 3-phase AC.� I think I'm
> >> >>just repeating myself here, implying people are
> >> >>replying without reading my original post.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Thanks for again making my point, that
> >> >>there is no grid-tie inverter available that
> >> >>you can plug a wind turbine into and have it
> >> >>just work.
> >> > > > > Notice: nobody has yet cited an example
> >> >of a grid-tie inverter that you can just plug a
> >> >turbine into and have it work. (nice try
> >> >though...)
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I developed what I call a WindyGIRL -
> >> >>electronics that will protect your WindyBOY
> >> >>inverter, but no guarantee you won't burn out
> >> >>your turbine by braking it.� I will keep
> >> >>working on it.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Yes pitching or furling is good, but I
> >> >>don't think either is a guarantee you won't
> >> >>seen a momentary voltage spike sufficient to
> >> >>ruin the inverter.� I wouldn't I'd bet your
> >> >>inverter on the idea that no gust combined with
> >> >>a changing wind direction (dust devil?) could
> >> >>ever spin the machine a tad fast for a brief
> >> >>moment.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > All it takes is a second of high voltage
> >> >>to smoke the input capacitors, as they have a
> >> >>very tight tolerance - go a few volts over and
> >> >>---zap--- - you are sending out your entire
> >> >>inverter for repairs.� Just the shipping back
> >> >>and forth will empty your wallet, let alone the
> >> >>repair cost.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > And Geoff, why you woould forward a
> >> >>mass-e-mail from a Chinese distributor selling
> >> >>battery-charging inverters that use a dump
> >> >>load, in response to the topic of a grid-tie
> >> >>inverter with NO dump load I am not quite
> >> >>understanding.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > How about if someone wants to respond, here's the topic:
> >> >> > > "Grid-Tie Inverter for a Wind Turbine
> >>that can take a Turbine as Input"
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > If you want to refute my post, saying that
> >> >>such is not currently available, please give an
> >> >>example and explain how it takes 3-phase input
> >> >>and is not damaged by overvoltage.� In other
> >> >>words, please stick to the topic and do not
> >> >>diverge into slightly-related peripheral topics.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > If this simple idea is too complicated for
> >> >>anyone to even understand what I am talking
> >> >>about, that may explain why none are available.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > :)
> >> >> > > Doug S.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --- In
> >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>,
> >> >>"James R. Parish" <JRP@> wrote:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I guess no one has tried an SMA �*�WindyBoy�*� ?
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > From: Doug
> >> >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:53 AM
> >> >> > > > To:
> >>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
s.com>small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> >> > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Grid Tie
> >>Inverters for wind turbines? - stone age
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >�
> >> >> > > > OK well I've listened to 20 years of
> >> >>green green green, and tried to participate.
> >> >>Getting off foreign oil, global warming, air
> >> >>pollution - I've heard all the reasons...
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > NREL, DOE, CEC, ARPA-E, NYSERDA, Google,
> >> >>BP, GE, SWWP - I've listened to the
> >> >>pronouncements of (future) progress...
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I've been to all the green feel-good trade shows and
conventions...
> >> >> > > > So after all this hype, hand-waving, and
> >> >>happy-talk, the most advanced country on Earth,
> >> >>has no grid-tie inverter that you can just plug
> >> >>a windmill into and have it work.
> >> >> > > > Yup that sounds about right.
> >> >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Glad I got one of the few ever made while they were available.
> >> >> > > > I guess, just like we'll never see
> >> >>another man on the moon, we'll never have a
> >> >>grid-tie inverter for windmills - heck all
> >> >>those green agencies are BUSY! Busy planning
> >> >>the next conference that will take a few more
> >> >>million gallons of oil to get everyone there.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > What, you say you have a windmill and
> >> >>want to plug it into the grid? Oh that's
> >> >>nice... Does anyone care? Apparently not.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> ==========================================================
> >> >> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> . Please feel free to send your input to:
> >> >> �
>
>><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroup\
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> >> >> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
> >> >> �
> >>
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bscribe%40yahoogroups.com>small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:small\
-wind-home-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> >> . To view previous messages from the list,
> >> >> � subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
> >> >> � or stop receiving the list by e-mail
> >> > > � (and read it on the Web), go to
> >> >> �
> >>
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> >> >>.�
> >> >> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
> >> >> �
> >>
>><<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>\
<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen>http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
> >> >>.
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >>
> >> >
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> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> >
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>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Given an inverter that rejects overvoltage to protect itself, the wind turbine
designer is then free to use, or not use, a dump load to protect the turbine, as
they see fit.

Thus the turbine designer can develop any type of turbine as long as it protects
itself, without having to simultaneously develop electronics to protect the
inverter.  How many wind turbine designers are also electronics experts?  Why
should they have to be?

Why is it the inverter designer's job to protect the inverter?
Simple:
1) It's THEIR inverter - protect it!
2) They are IN the field of electronics - the turbine designer is probably not -
that is a whole new field to acquire a PhD in.
3) The inverter company knows their own inverter, so they (should) know how to
protect it.  A trivial task for an electronics expert who designed the inverter,
may be a show-stopper for anyone else.
4) It makes the inverter a self-sufficient component, that can serve the role of
a universal building block, so others can use it without rolling up their
sleeves to design a whole new system to protect someone else's inverter.
5) They can truthfully say they HAVE an inverter FOR small wind turbines.
6) They will not have to produce a "wind interface box", recommend red-hot dump
loads, etc.
7)They will appeal to customers who don't want to waste money on a dump load and
time and space mounting it
8)They will not have to continually "warn" customers about the capacitors.
9)They can sell inverters directly to anyone rather than having to restrict
sales to "knowledgeable" "dealers" who will have a slightly lower chance of
returning units with damaged capacitors.
10)They won't have to vet each new "dealer" wondering how long before they
return their first inverter.
11) They will not have to worry about their own product being returned with
burnt out capacitors.

Why do I bring it up on this list?
I can't think of a better place to discuss what characteristics a grid-tie wind
energy inverter should have, from a turbine developer's viewpoint.  Hey this
internet is great - you can have discussions and give your opinion, get
feedback, etc.  If there is a better place on the web than this to discuss small
wind PLEASE tell me.  I would eagerly utilize that information.

While many of us are slowly realizing that the internet could be the greatest
time-waster ever invented, making movies and TV look tame by comparison, I hope
I'm not wasting EVERY minute I spend on the web.
Thanks for listening, and for any good feedback.
:)
Doug Selsam

P.S. I am now aware of the possibility of using a torque-controlled pitching
hub, if I took the time and resources to thoroughly develop and test it.  It
could be a great concept.  I wonder where we can see one now.  Is anyone using
one now that we can check out how it works?  Thanks (again) in advance for that
opinion.